Moors or Almohads.

[robertthebruce]

I don´t understand you.

Architecture: the horseshoe arc was of Visigoth inspiration, other architecture inspirations were Byzantine or Indian (mostly domes). The fortifications and castles (also the siege machines) were superior in the western, also before the arrive of the Arabs to Spain or Italy.

True, but, all arquitecture in history was based in previous civilizations.

The Alhambra is a fortification of westerner design (but constructed by the grenadine rulers), and its decoration being beautiful and refined only used chalk and pottery (material considered poor). The expensive material was stone and woods. One thing, thanks to the Spanish that the Alhambra exist today (so great part of the mosque of Cordoba).

Poor materials, what is the problem? there is no doubt about tha alhambra is the highest artistic expression of Western Islam.

The Alhambra is a fortification

Not True, Alhambra is a Palace, Alcazaba is a part of Alhambra, this is a fortification.

Philosophy was all based in classical works, mainly Aristotle’s. Example seen in Averroes and Maimonedes (who was a jew). Curiously both went to exile to Egypt having fear of the “fanaticals”. And no so few were fanatics. All the Islamics civilizations arounds the Koran in nearly all the aspect of life

Western Islam was bassed in classical works, yes, In this period, Aristóteles and Platon are forbidden in some Christians states. Maimonides, had to pretend his conversion to Islam to avoid persecution of almohades in 1148.

And no so few were fanatics. All the Islamics civilizations arounds the Koran in nearly all the aspect of life

This is an absurd vision, Averroes and Maimonides, lived in times of Berber occupation, religious Berbers authorities can be seen as fanatical, but the Andalusian period is earlier, in this period in the mosque of Cordoba, Muslims prayed on Fridays, Saturdays Jews, and Christians on Sundays, I do not think that this shows a fanatic society

Ribat a aspect of the use of the Jihad. And yes the Jihad is a sample of fanatism

Jihad is not a sample of Fantism, is one of the 5 precepts of Islam.

Read the Koran

I have 3 Koran versions in Home.

In law, I think it was better the Visigothic code (based in the roman law) than the Sharia so used in Spain during the moors domination.

This the reason because the Visigoth people recieved arabs with open arms.


Cheers

David

[Montesa]

I don´t understand you.

A little tired to hear that the muslim civilization were superior to any other civilization as you said, and the chronicles, buildings, etc... says another thing.

Architecture: the horseshoe arc was of Visigoth inspiration, other architecture inspirations were Byzantine or Indian (mostly domes). The fortifications and castles (also the siege machines) were superior in the western, also before the arrive of the Arabs to Spain or Italy.

True, but, all arquitecture in history was based in previous civilizations.

Di acordo, but the cathedrals was really new, not based on other civilizations.

The Alhambra is a fortification of westerner design (but constructed by the grenadine rulers), and its decoration being beautiful and refined only used chalk and pottery (material considered poor). The expensive material was stone and woods. One thing, thanks to the Spanish that the Alhambra exist today (so great part of the mosque of Cordoba).

Poor materials, what is the problem? there is no doubt about tha alhambra is the highest artistic expression of Western Islam.

Problem none. only that when all the people thinks that it was a rich place, and it was not so true.

The Alhambra is a fortification

Not True, Alhambra is a Palace, Alcazaba is a part of Alhambra, this is a fortification.

The Alhambra is a fortification (alcazar or alcazaba) as the same of Almeria and there is a palace between its walls (really two) Leones and Carlos V. It was a little walled city. There were no defensive innovation.

Philosophy was all based in classical works, mainly Aristotle’s. Example seen in Averroes and Maimonedes (who was a jew). Curiously both went to exile to Egypt having fear of the “fanaticals”. And no so few were fanatics. All the Islamics civilizations arounds the Koran in nearly all the aspect of life

Western Islam was bassed in classical works, yes, In this period, Aristóteles and Platon are forbidden in some Christians states. Maimonides, had to pretend his conversion to Islam to avoid persecution of almohades in 1148.

And no so few were fanatics. All the Islamics civilizations arounds the Koran in nearly all the aspect of life

This is an absurd vision, Averroes and Maimonides, lived in times of Berber occupation, religious Berbers authorities can be seen as fanatical, but the Andalusian period is earlier, in this period in the mosque of Cordoba, Muslims prayed on Fridays, Saturdays Jews, and Christians on Sundays, I do not think that this shows a fanatic society

Then you must answer why there was religious persecution in Cordoba in the IX and X century, the mozarabes emigrated to the north when a little before it starts the Reconquista, why couldn't used the bells in the churchs or do religious manifestations in public. And as all religions did the cordoban mosque is was build over a church, as many others as also sinagogues (then when they were conquered it changed to churchs).

Ribat a aspect of the use of the Jihad. And yes the Jihad is a sample of fanatism

Jihad is not a sample of Fantism, is one of the 5 precepts of Islam.

Its too complex to discuss here, but don't you mean 5 pillars??? I don't remember as jihad one of them.

Read the Koran

I have 3 Koran versions in Home.

In law, I think it was better the Visigothic code (based in the roman law) than the Sharia so used in Spain during the moors domination.

This the reason because the Visigoth people recieved arabs with open arms.

The majority of the visigoth didn't received with them with open arms. Were the hispano-romans, the jews, and a small faction (sons of Witiza, etc). Lex Romana Wisigothorum is the "father" of the spanish law it is studied in the university.

David

[robertthebruce]

Not True, Alhambra is a Palace, Alcazaba is a part of Alhambra, this is a fortification.

The Alhambra is a fortification (alcazar or alcazaba) as the same of Almeria and there is a palace between its walls (really two) Leones and Carlos V. It was a little walled city. There were no defensive innovation.

I can see the Alhambra from my window , I have studied alhambra for 10 years, I have even been a tourist guide in it .

I don´t want to seem impertinent, but you are wrong, the oldest part in Alhambra is the Alcazaba, it have 3 towers (Vela and two twins towers called "Two Sisters", this is the militar structure, that was joined to the City walls, they had 25 towers, 1808 the french destroyed 24 of them, only "The Vela Tower" Suvived..

Continuing the alcazaba, we have a Defensive walls around the Alhambra, in it origin it was a defensive place, but it was never defended, because never was attacked, int he north side, we have the Nasrid Palaces, we have not 2 palaces we have 3, "The Comares Palace" (It was the Throne hall), and the "Lions Palace" the Emir residence. There is too the Carlos V Palace, but it was added later and built by Pedro Machuca in 1527.

Di acordo

Sorry, are you Italian?

Problem none. only that when all the people thinks that it was a rich place, and it was not so true.

Sure?, Alhambra is the most visited Building in the 2nd most visited country in the world, It was finalist in the new 7 wonders two years ago.

Not Rich? you can ask to Washington Irving.


Do you want to Know any more ?

Intersting discusion, I´m not Tired at all but, I´m moderator in this forum and I think, it´s not the correct place to talk about this. This is the Army desing forum, do you want to continue by mail?

Regards


David

[carlos]

I can't remember seeing someone being so owned online as Montesa was in this topic.

[Montesa]

Not True, Alhambra is a Palace, Alcazaba is a part of Alhambra, this is a fortification.

The Alhambra is a fortification (alcazar or alcazaba) as the same of Almeria and there is a palace between its walls (really two) Leones and Carlos V. It was a little walled city. There were no defensive innovation.

I can see the Alhambra from my window , I have studied alhambra for 10 years, I have even been a tourist guide in it .

I don´t want to seem impertinent, but you are wrong, the oldest part in Alhambra is the Alcazaba, it have 3 towers (Vela and two twins towers called "Two Sisters", this is the militar structure, that was joined to the City walls, they had 25 towers, 1808 the french destroyed 24 of them, only "The Vela Tower" Suvived..

Continuing the alcazaba, we have a Defensive walls around the Alhambra, in it origin it was a defensive place, but it was never defended, because never was attacked, int he north side, we have the Nasrid Palaces, we have not 2 palaces we have 3, "The Comares Palace" (It was the Throne hall), and the "Lions Palace" the Emir residence. There is too the Carlos V Palace, but it was added later and built by Pedro Machuca in 1527.

Di acordo

Sorry, are you Italian?

Problem none. only that when all the people thinks that it was a rich place, and it was not so true.

Sure?, Alhambra is the most visited Building in the 2nd most visited country in the world, It was finalist in the new 7 wonders two years ago.

Not Rich? you can ask to Washington Irving.


Do you want to Know any more ?

Intersting discusion, I´m not Tired at all but, I´m moderator in this forum and I think, it´s not the correct place to talk about this. This is the Army desing forum, do you want to continue by mail?

Regards


David

For me is also a interesting discusion, but prefer not continue it. Only said I was tired to read that the arabs were the most advanced civilization being others. And you have all the truth saying this was about armies lists.
I'm deciding to do a Feudal spanish or a Later crusader. (already have a HYW English and a Later Hungarian)
I'm not italian. I'm nearer of you.

[Montesa]

I can't remember seeing someone being so owned online as Montesa was in this topic.

What do you mean???

[robertthebruce]

As you want.

But, there will be no Feudal Spanish in FOG, the Spanish army lists in this period will be divided by Kingdoms (Castilla, Aragon, Navarra...) we can´t talk about a Spanish state until some years later.


Cheers

David


PD: If you are so close maybe we could play a game.

[Montesa]

I know that there are differents realms. Probably Castilla.
Sure!!!

[Shem]

Hello,
I'm about to base some Almoravid Infantry and I'm wondering what they will propably be classified as. You were talking only about HF, defensive spear, will there also be MF troops with similar equpiment? And what do you think, will the archers be LF or MF (or both)?

Best regards,
Shem

[robertthebruce]

This is a very diverse army list, It´s based in HF, Defensive Spearmen and LH.

will there also be MF troops with similar equpiment?

No, the most of Berber Infantry were deployed in close formations or in Skirmish mode, all the battles cronics in Spain or Africa show us it.

Berber Javelinemen, fighting in big units, could be classified as MF JLS, but, this kind of infantry, usually not fight in close combat, they use Skirmish tactics, the christians said about them, that they used "Torna-Fuye" (go and back) tactics, LF sure.

And what do you think, will the archers be LF or MF (or both)?

Both. A lot of foot archers were deployed by the Berber armies in front, I think it was a traditional tactic for them. Hundreds of Almohads arrowheads were recovered from the Alarcos Battlefield in recent excavations.

In "Navas de Tolosa" Christians cronics talk about them too, this is the main reason why the christians ussualy charged frontally at the beginning of the battles, is not a good idea to stay a long time under a rain of arrows.

The most of times, these archers, flee from the enemy charge an go to the rear of the spearmen units, then, they supported the spearmen and firing to the rear ranks of enemy units once they came in contact.

In the Berber list, you can choose between MF or LF for your archers.


Regards

David

[Shem]

Thanks alot! For now, I'm gong to paint and use those Almoravids as Fatimid Egyptians. Comparing my figures to the Osprey picture from S&S this should fit. When the feudal supplement fnally comes out, I will decide what to do with them.

[Montesa]

By the way would there be Genoese and Pisan allies with Leon, Castilla, Navarra, and Aragon. There were also templars and occitanians, Campaign of 1147.