How to deal with subs?

[tomerko]

Hi,
I find it impossible to deal with submerged subs that are attacking my fleet.
Am i missing some way to deal with this situation?

[Bylandt11]

Well, destroyers and sonar obviously. But you probably knew that already.

Don't forget that subs that don't move can't be spotted by the sonar. I have found that an AI sub that is reloading will not move if it is within sonar range of a destroyer. In that case you need to move the destroyer to the hex where you saw the sub last or where you expect him to be. That will trigger automatic spotting.

All easier said than done, of course. Fortunately subs do very little damage and can only move two hexes without surfacing. So in most cases it's better to rein in the urge to destroy them: keeping on the move will shake them off and you will not lose too much time hunting them down.

[Brenmusik]

... Fortunately subs do very little damage ...

Yet air launched torpedoes do impressive damage, the sort I'd like to see submarines do.
On the subject of ASW, why is it that depth charges have the same range as some torpedoes?

[Fishsticks]

... Fortunately subs do very little damage ...

Yet air launched torpedoes do impressive damage, the sort I'd like to see submarines do.
On the subject of ASW, why is it that depth charges have the same range as some torpedoes?

I wish the devs could rework submarines. Maybe a trade off where the torpedos could do much more damage but the unit can only move 1 hex undetected. Submarines are the one unit I feel a massive disconnect with. It feels as if tactics are all but wasted with their tinfoil torpedoes.

[Falke_MatrixForum]

Yet air launched torpedoes do impressive damage, the sort I'd like to see submarines do.
On the subject of ASW, why is it that depth charges have the same range as some torpedoes?

Gameplay reasons, since the DD can not move when using sonar. The game generally Permits move+action or Action(no move).

To have a "realistic" range of adjacent you would have to Permit moving after using sonar and/or allow any DD to move and attack a Sub once spotted.

[monkspider]

... Fortunately subs do very little damage ...

Yet air launched torpedoes do impressive damage, the sort I'd like to see submarines do.
On the subject of ASW, why is it that depth charges have the same range as some torpedoes?

I wish the devs could rework submarines. Maybe a trade off where the torpedos could do much more damage but the unit can only move 1 hex undetected. Submarines are the one unit I feel a massive disconnect with. It feels as if tactics are all but wasted with their tinfoil torpedoes.

I agree with this! I think subs just need a total rework. On one hand, their torpedoes on are almost worthless, I remember as the US I made a huge effort to get my sub within range of a battleship, sneaking past destroyers and slowly, slowly sneaking up on the BB. When I finally made it there, I was furious when my attacks were projected to only do 0+ damage and then would take several turns to reload.

On the other hand, as this thread has demonstrated AI subs are way too annoying to deal with. It is really tough to find enemy subs, and their attacks on your carriers, although weak, do add up over time.

[simcc]

It's very hard as U.S. player to hunt IJN subs as they are range 3 but as IJ hunting US subs I find it not much issue due to range 2 but I do hate those sneaky sub getting a hit on carrier lol but again I admire that action too makes me regret not escorting it with a DD

[rezaf]

I agree with this!

So do I.
First of all, the "perimeter movement" where going maximum range will cause the boat to surface needs to go. Replace it with manual survace/dive mechanics (which the player will amost never use).
Instead, have moving the full range disable the torpedo attack.
Next, the subs torpedos need to do at least the same amount of damage as the torbedo-bomber equivalents.

To compensate, escorting a target with a destroyer (parking one on a neighboring hex, not with multi-hex range as the AA defense) should reveal the location of a sub if it attacks.
This would encourage and reward destroyer escorts and make it possible to detect enemy submarines, which with the japs is a PITA in the current implementation.
Attacking an escorted target would be a tradeoff as it'd do major damage, but with high likelyhood would result in the loss of the submarine.
The mechanics for attacking an unescorted target would be as it is now except for the much higher damage.

T counterbalance the automatic reveal from destroyers, waterbombs should be weakened a bit and using them should conceal the sub and move it to a neighboring hex (or beyond if all are occupied, similar to the retreat mechanic except there can be no surround).

Since I think the "run into" submarine detection is also kinda stupid, I think this should - like waterbombs - simply push the sub out of the way to a neighboring hex. Instead, destroyers sonars should still work provided they moved only one (or maybe two?) hexes this turn.

Having a whole different undersea "layer" like the air would be preferable, but I totally understand why something like that wasn't implemented for a single unit.
_____
rezaf

[monkspider]

I agree with this!

So do I.
First of all, the "perimeter movement" where going maximum range will cause the boat to surface needs to go. Replace it with manual survace/dive mechanics (which the player will amost never use).
Instead, have moving the full range disable the torpedo attack.
Next, the subs torpedos need to do at least the same amount of damage as the torbedo-bomber equivalents.

To compensate, escorting a target with a destroyer (parking one on a neighboring hex, not with multi-hex range as the AA defense) should reveal the location of a sub if it attacks.
This would encourage and reward destroyer escorts and make it possible to detect enemy submarines, which with the japs is a PITA in the current implementation.
Attacking an escorted target would be a tradeoff as it'd do major damage, but with high likelyhood would result in the loss of the submarine.
The mechanics for attacking an unescorted target would be as it is now except for the much higher damage.

T counterbalance the automatic reveal from destroyers, waterbombs should be weakened a bit and using them should conceal the sub and move it to a neighboring hex (or beyond if all are occupied, similar to the retreat mechanic except there can be no surround).

Since I think the "run into" submarine detection is also kinda stupid, I think this should - like waterbombs - simply push the sub out of the way to a neighboring hex. Instead, destroyers sonars should still work provided they moved only one (or maybe two?) hexes this turn.

Having a whole different undersea "layer" like the air would be preferable, but I totally understand why something like that wasn't implemented for a single unit.
_____
rezaf

*Applause*

Wow, that is brilliant. I love every bit of this, and think it would be an immense improvement! Hopefully the devs see this.