Lydian v Classical Greek

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dave_r
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Lydian v Classical Greek

Post by dave_r »

My first go at an AAR here on the website.

Playing in the MAWS club Ancients Warlords Trophy - this was a KO match. Since the Oxford doubles is around the corner (which I am not going to...) we agreed to play a 1000pt game from Immortal Fire.

I decided to use Lydian:

1 IC + 3 TC's
16 Cavalry, Superior, Undrilled, Armoured, Light Spear, Swordsmen (4*4)
8 Light Horse, Average, Javelin, Light Spear (2*4)
4 Light Horse, Average, Bow, Swordsmen (1*4)
12 Medium Foot, Average, Undrilled, Light spear (2*6)
12 Light Foot, Average, Undrilled, Javelin, Light Spear (2*6)
32 Hoplites, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spear (4*8)
6 Light Foot, Average, Undrilled, Bow (1*6)
6 Thracians, Average, Undrilled, Light Spear, Swordsmen (1*6)

I had the Pre-Battle Initiative and facing Greeks, chose Hilly. I put down the maximum Steep Hills, a Village and a Marsh. The Greeks put some rough going down.

Most of the terrain formed an inpenetrable mass in the middle and the right hand side (well if you are heavy foot anyway). There was a large steep hill on the left, leaving a gap of around 40 cm, then in the middle a large marsh - with both of these being on my opponents side. Then the village was on my side and some rough next to it and finally a steep hill on the far right hand side on my opponents side.

Cant remember exactly what was in the Greek list, but it involved bucketfulls of hoplites. There was some poor quality LF with javelins deployed on the steep hill opposite the village. I had placed two ambushes of the Light Foot Javelinmen, one in the village and the other in the steep hill. There was some more Greek LF on the steep hill on the far left, armed with bows and slings.

We both deployed masses of hoplites in the "open area" on the left, with the Greeks including an allied Spartan contingent. I deployed my LH in front of the hoplites and 2 BG's of Cavalry on the far left. I had one BG of Cavalry on the far right and one in the middle next to the village. The two MF Lydian BG's were providing rear support to the 4 BG's of hoplites. and the Thracians were lined up to have a pop at some MF defensive spearmen in the Marsh in the middle. There were three more BG's of Greek Hoplites in front of the village and rough going.

There was an initial clash on the right hand side between the two sets of LF - with the Lydians being average to the Greeks Poor proving a crucial difference and quickly fragging one BG and disrupting the other. Both Greek LF BG's were withdrawn and the hoplites moved up. Because I had some Cavalry on the far right, this forced the Greeks to split up to cover the gaps that the LF had now left. I moved my LH in front of the hoplites to their left to be opposite the Steep Hill to give the LF skirmishers something to think about, which meant the hoplites were unable to advance. But the Thracians were keen and ran towards the Defensive spear in the difficult going.

The Greek Hoplites surged forward in the good going and started widening their lines as it became possible - although still overlapped by the Lydian Hoplites at this stage. With the Light Horse eventually getting out of their way, the Lydian Hoplites moved forward in an effort to engage the Greeks, before they could make their superior numbers tell and outflank them.

The Lydian Light Horse dispersed the Greek LF (fragging one BG) and moved to threaten the Hoplite flank. This caused a Spartan BG to be drawn away from the main line and charged several times to relieve the pressure. My Thracians had by now come within charge range and ran into the Defensive Spearmen. Despite only having 4 dice to my oponents 6 and my opponent having his general in the front rank, this was a dead draw for about 5 consecutive combats.

On the right the hoplites had charged the skirmishers that had dispersed the Greek skirmishers and ran forward exposing their flank to the Lydian Cavalry. The greeks were ordered to about face, but their lines were obviously still disordered from their charge and could not be turned. The Lydian Cavalry promptly charged and fragged the unit at impact and broke them in melee. The hoplites ran just enough to contact the next BG in the line, disordering them, so when the victorious cavalry smashed into their flank in the JAP they then broke in the next impact phase. The victorious cavalry where whooped along and would not be stopped from pursuing their quarry. Which was ill advised due to some rubbish cavalry who had watched the events unfold, but were now in an excellent position to charge the flank of the pursuing horsemen, which they did and broke them.

On the left the hoplites clashed. Because of the defensive spearmen getting held up by the Thracians for ages and the Spartans having to deal with Light Horse, this meant that the Lydians had overlaps on both sides of the main line and one BG of spartans on the far left - there was also 3 Lydian Generals to the Greeks 1. Combined with some fairly poor CT's on the Greeks part this meant that two of the BG's were disrupted during the initial impact and melee. In the Lydian turn this worsened, although some Lydian Hoplites did go disrupted on the far right.

The Thracians eventually broke, but even then proved to be useful as they ran past the Lydian spear line they prevented some hoplites outflanking the Lydians :)

The Greeks threw the last roll of the dice and all the remaining hoplites not engaged charged in, including the elite (oops, sorry Superior) Spartans with a general in the front rank. However, even this was not enough to halt the victorious Lydians and even one of the Spartan BG's was disrupted and when one of the Greek BG's in the middle of the line broke this caused a wave of panic which all but destroyed the spear wall by breaking one BG's and fragging two more.

It was at this point the Greeks threw in the towel, having 5 BG's broken and several Fragged with only two Lydian BG's broken and not much possibility of any more success.

Interesting game. (I think) We both concluded the following

- Lack of mounted really, really hurts the Greeks
- It is kind of obvious that if your opponent has a wodge of off spearmen then difficult going is the key - the greeks lack quality Light Foot to slug it out in the difficult going
- The three generals and rear support for the Lydians in my mind were key. My opponent claimed I threw good dice for Cohesion tests (which was also true)
caliban66
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Post by caliban66 »

Lidian horse are not "lancers"? Pity. Now it´s too late for comments, anyway.
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Post by Niceas »

sounds like a very interesting fight. Glad to see the light troops still being important with bad ground.
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nikgaukroger
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Post by nikgaukroger »

caliban66 wrote:Lidian horse are not "lancers"? Pity. Now it´s too late for comments, anyway.
If you check out their capabilities against their historical opponents you'll find that Light Spear works wonders :)
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caliban66
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Post by caliban66 »

Nice report, and very well described. I find the comments very accurate.


BTW, nikgaukroger, Herodotus wrote: "Lidians bore long lances and were very brave". And once they meet Cirus´ camels, he wrote that "lidians dismounted and fought as hoplites." Herodotus, "History", book I.
Both comments made me think that:
a) Their tactics involved a direct clash against enemy ranks. Otherwise, they could have "skirmished" in front of camels.
b) Their equipment was protective and lances were long enough to fight as hoplites, i.e., with a long heavy spear, and not as lighter troops. A teban rider, e.g., could have never wielded his javelins as an spear.

Anyway, there´s actually no point on such reviews. But I was looking for some inspiration for my next army once I finish my LAP, and Lidians were one of my favourite options, but I thought about them as lancers, in order to have a type of cavalry different from achaemenid.
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Post by nikgaukroger »

Just for reference long spears do not a Lancer make and even if they were Lancers it would have made as much sense to dismount (based on the Immortal Fire classifications). Also mounted Light Spear are as good against the Persian camels as Lancers as the camles have no impact PoA.
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Post by rbodleyscott »

caliban66 wrote:Anyway, there´s actually no point on such reviews. But I was looking for some inspiration for my next army once I finish my LAP, and Lidians were one of my favourite options, but I thought about them as lancers, in order to have a type of cavalry different from achaemenid.
But they are different from Achaemenid - Early Achaemenid Persian cavalry are bow, swordsmen.

The realisation (from contemporary depictions) that Achaemenid cavalry were not armed with bow and spear (as Herodotos implies rather than states), allowed us to classify Lydians more historically as spear armed rather than as lancers. The only reason we classified them as Kn (F) (i.e. lancers) in DBM was to allow them to be better in close combat than Early Achaemenid Persian cavalry.

With Early Achaemenid cavalry correctly classified, the need to pretend Lydians were lancers goes away, as Light Spear also gives Lydian cavalry a POA over Persian cavalry in Impact combat.

IIRC a more accurate translation of Herodotos is "large spears" rather than "long spears". Check out the Slingshot article on Lydians written by Mark Trengove a few years ago for further details that convinced us that Light Spear was a more appropriate classification.

So the classification isn't an oversight. We made a conscious decision to change Lydian cavalry from "Lancers", to Light Spear classification because we consider that that is a more accurate representation historically.
caliban66
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Post by caliban66 »

I´ll read it. Thanks for the references.
About the achaemenid cavalry, I meant that I was looking for something different. I already have an EAP with Bow/Sw cav., and I´m actually raising a LAP army with Light Sp/Sw riders, and was looking for different cavalry, with lances, you know.
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Post by caliban66 »

rbodleyscott wrote:
caliban66 wrote:Anyway, there´s actually no point on such reviews. But I was looking for some inspiration for my next army once I finish my LAP, and Lidians were one of my favourite options, but I thought about them as lancers, in order to have a type of cavalry different from achaemenid.
But they are different from Achaemenid - Early Achaemenid Persian cavalry are bow, swordsmen.

The realisation (from contemporary depictions) that Achaemenid cavalry were not armed with bow and spear (as Herodotos implies rather than states), allowed us to classify Lydians more historically as spear armed rather than as lancers. The only reason we classified them as Kn (F) (i.e. lancers) in DBM was to allow them to be better in close combat than Early Achaemenid Persian cavalry.

With Early Achaemenid cavalry correctly classified, the need to pretend Lydians were lancers goes away, as Light Spear also gives Lydian cavalry a POA over Persian cavalry in Impact combat.

IIRC a more accurate translation of Herodotos is "large spears" rather than "long spears". Check out the Slingshot article on Lydians written by Mark Trengove a few years ago for further details that convinced us that Light Spear was a more appropriate classification.

So the classification isn't an oversight. We made a conscious decision to change Lydian cavalry from "Lancers", to Light Spear classification because we consider that that is a more accurate representation historically.
Sorry. This may not be here, but I would like to know how can I find "Slingshot". I´ve downloaded an index and found out that I need issue 231. Anyway, I would like to read almost any of the articles listed, but I can´t find those old issues. Thank you.
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Post by rbodleyscott »

caliban66 wrote:Sorry. This may not be here, but I would like to know how can I find "Slingshot". I´ve downloaded an index and found out that I need issue 231. Anyway, I would like to read almost any of the articles listed, but I can´t find those old issues. Thank you.
The Society of Ancients used to sell a CD with all the back issues on it in scanned PDF format. I expect they still do. Although I have all the issues of Slingshot back to 1971 :shock: I generally use that rather than getting out the paper copies.

Its a really useful searchable resource for anyone interested in Ancient or Medieval military history.
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Post by nikgaukroger »

Now available as a DVD to 2005 IIRC.
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dave_r
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Post by dave_r »

I remember being a bit dissapointed that the Cavalry were not classed as Lancers, mainly down to the persians calling them Lancers (and specifically mentioning the "long lance"). I went away and thought about this for a while to present a bloody good reason why they should be Lancers and ..... couldn't think of anything!!!

Here is what I came up with -

A lot of this is possibly from DBM where the Cav are Kn(F). This is so they can beat the Persian cavalry. Light Spear, Swordsmen will beat Bow, Swordsmen, so job done.

It is only approx 500 BC. Nobody really gets a lance (i.e. knightly lance) until the Normans later on.

Having a light spear is exceptionally useful - you can evade. You still get a bonus against the cowards who shoot, but with out the impetousness.

Your only problem is against Lancer Cavalry - and being Superior (hopefully with a general attached) and hope for the best in the impact phase and then duff them up in the melee.
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