Tacitus Germania

[Irmin]

Have just bought the rule book and am looking at army options.

Interests are Samurai and Romano-Germany, for the lack of eastern lists I think my first army will have to be Romano-Germanic. In Germania Tacitus describes a germanic tribe who paint themselves black and carry black shields can anyone shed any light as to what tribe this was and what list would be suitable to use in FoG?

[nikgaukroger]

Well if Tacitus doesn't mention their name then I doubt anyone else does

This from an online version - so no guarantee about the translation:

"Now the Aryans, besides their forces, in which they surpass the several nations just recounted, are in their persons stern and truculent; and even humour and improve their natural grimness and ferocity by art and time. They wear black shields, their bodies are painted black, they choose dark nights for engaging in battle; and by the very awe and ghastly hue of their army, strike the enemy with dread, as none can bear this their aspect so surprising and as it were quite infernal. For, in all battles the eyes are vanquished first."

The relevant German list will be in the Legions Triumphant supplement.

[Irmin]

My problem is that tacitus lists his tribes in an outward route and has already mentioned "the Marsignians, the Gothinians, the Osians and the Burians, who altogether enclose the Marcomanians and Quadians " this to me would deem them to be outside of germania and further east. Therefore would it be the Early German list or Early Ostrogothic or Early Frankish

[Irmin]

OK have done a little more research and found a tribe called the Harii and according to the font of all knowledge Wikipedia these are the tribe Tacitus describes as Aryan.

They come from an area between the Vistula and Oder rivers noth of the Carpathian mountains so not really in Germania, any further thoughts on which list to use?

[flameberge]

Wikipedia is a great resource but I've found numerous errors in their articles.

[ars_belli]

The Latin text may be found in Tacitus, Germania 1 (43), and names this Germanic tribe as the Harii:

Ceterum Harii super vires, quibus enumeratos paulo ante populos antecedunt, truces insitae feritati arte ac tempore lenocinantur: nigra scuta, tincta corpora; atras ad proelia noctes legunt ipsaque formidine atque umbra feralis exercitus terrorem inferunt, nullo hostium sustinente novum ac velut infernum adspectum; nam primi in omnibus proeliis oculi vincuntur.

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/tacitus/tac.ger.shtml#43

Alfred John Church and William Jackson Brodribb (1942) translate the passage into English thusly:

The Harii, besides being superior in strength to the tribes just enumerated, savage as they are, make the most of their natural ferocity by the help of art and opportunity. Their shields are black, their bodies dyed. They choose dark nights for battle, and, by the dread and gloomy aspect of their death-like host, strike terror into the foe, who can never confront their strange and almost infernal appearance. For in all battles it is the eye which is first vanquished.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.02.0083

I much prefer this translation to that of Thomas Gordon (1737), which is where the transformation of the Harii into "Aryans" appears to have occurred: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/ta ... ygord.html

Some more information on the ancient Germanic tribes may be found here: http://www.unrv.com/provinces/germania.php

Hope this helps a bit!

Cheers,
Scott

[nikgaukroger]

For the period Tacitus wrote in use the Early German list.

[Scrumpy]

Well if Tacitus doesn't mention their name then I doubt anyone else does

This from an online version - so no guarantee about the translation:

"Now the Aryans, besides their forces, in which they surpass the several nations just recounted, are in their persons stern and truculent; and even humour and improve their natural grimness and ferocity by art and time. They wear black shields, their bodies are painted black, they choose dark nights for engaging in battle; and by the very awe and ghastly hue of their army, strike the enemy with dread, as none can bear this their aspect so surprising and as it were quite infernal. For, in all battles the eyes are vanquished first."

The relevant German list will be in the Legions Triumphant supplement.

Maybe this explains why te German tribes were doing Zulu war chants in Gladiator ?

[Irmin]

Just read through my copy of germania (Translated by A.R.Birley) he describes the harii in his notes as "unknown under this name but perhaps the same as the Charini (Pliny, NH) and the Hasdingi, the most prominent division of the vandals, involved in the marcomannic War (Eutropius, Breviarium)

This would point away from the Early German list towards Vandals or ostrogoths, but as they're all in the same book I'll look at all the lists and decide which suits them best.

Until the lists arrive any idea what the Early Germans, Ostrogoth or Vandals list looks like.

[nikgaukroger]

God alone knows how you get from Harii to Hasdingi - other than the latter are somebody we've heard of so we'll try and make a connection

However, if they were the same the tribes that fought in the Marcomannic wars are covered by the Early German.

Ostrogoths are right out as their strength lies in cavalry. The Vandals are just like the early Germans really being nearly all HF, Impact Foot, Swordsmen.