Request: Strategies for Nations without Heavy or Mixed Inf

[kongxinga]

I am admittedly a new player, and am still trying to grasp the FOG:R rules as depicted in Pike and shot. Playing Tercio to Salvo, I immediately started with some of the Eastern Nations, such as Ottoman Turkey, and find myself having a very hard time dealing with nations with a lot of reliable Keils, heavy inf, pike and shot, or even mixed infantry. Let's also not talk about the impressive determined foot. I have both tried the early Arquebus based turks, and the late age turks, but the AI is consistently beating me, making me worried of ever even having a ghost of a chance online.

The main issue is my inability to nullify pike and shot units before they close and kill my infantry at impact (1 cohesion stage usually lost at impact) then at melee.

I tried shooting them, but they can take it and shoot back. The more armoured late game ones can stand at long musket range and benefit from their armor as well, so unless I have very vast fire superiority (3 jans and a skirmisher per pike and shot unit) I can't shoot them down before they close to melee.

i have tried falling back, in stages so troops can cover each other, but it seems my troops keep taking cohesion tests, eventually disordering themselves.

On the cavalry front thing's are little better. My Sipahis of the Porte lose at impact to pistol curassiers that fire at impact, and then lose at melee as well. Late game Turks also seem to get weaker relative to early game, because musket infantry can fire at range 4 compared to the still range 2 bows and carbines, while at least arquebus infantry don't get a free shot. I don't have heavier cav, so it would seem I need to really shoot up the curaissiers, then attempt a flank charge with another unit.

I don't think Turks get anything special like salvo or commanded shot, so no tricks available there.

Is there any general tips for the lighter nations (Ottoman mostly, but also nations with few or poor pike and shot like Translvania/Hungary) to deal with the steam rolling Pike and Shot? I know they are the eponymous unit and their name is on the cover of the game, but I really hope the counter to a Pike and shot unit is not just your own Pike and Shot. These guys are like the Space marines from 40k, can outshoot you and kill you in melee.

I also wonder why there are no sword and buckler units that Machievelli mentioned in The Prince. I would think the Ottomans could get warriors with Yartaghans and shields (so armour please) that can actually stand up in melee. Perhaps the poorly armed levies are supposed to be the Yartaghan and shield infantry, but I buy them only to increase my unit count and never use them in combat to avoid chain routing my lines.

[KiwiWarlord]

I'm just off to my local wargames club to run my 15mm Ottoman Turks against some Fanatic Berbers using FoG AM rules. Your post has inspired me to take a look at the Turks on T 2 S. I have played them on P&S against the Poles and won.
You did not mention if you were playing historical opponents, skirmish or MP games.Did you use artillery?

[simacole]

I found the later Turks one of the easier armies to play. It took me much longer to get used to pike block and gendarme armies. Use the terrain to fight with your infantry. Position your Jannaissaries and Azaps in woods or on tough ground, behind fortifications, or in buildings. Confront pike kiels with your horde of sipahis. Don't charge. Shoot the hell out of them. Let the kiels charge you. They will beat you of course, but with a bit of luck your cavalry will just be driven back, allowing them to keep on shooting and pulling the kiels out of position. Use similar tactics against opposing cavalry. You will almost certainly have more cavalry. Use your numbers to shoot and flank. Your artillery is decent hammer his kiels from afar with it.

[kongxinga]

You did not mention if you were playing historical opponents, skirmish or MP games.Did you use artillery?

I am playing historical matchups, so generally against the HRE and aligned forces (Austria, etc). I usually use 1 heavy gun, as I noticed the computer usually only takes mediums, and nothing like a few pot shots to force them to advance.

I can't seem to win either cav or infantry superiority. On paper I usually have more cav units, but in practice it takes multiple cav to tie down enemy cav, not to mention if I use multiple cav and rout the enemy I lose control of multiple cav units that chase the routed all over the map, just in time to get flank charged and destroyed.

I also lose cav units to screening duty, as my Janissaries are very vulnerable to cav even frontally, so I must use cav to screen them from enemy cav. A pike and shot can pretty much shrug off cav by itself. The whole ignore flankers also make it very hard for me to take advantage of local cav superiority.

I can't quite reconcile with what I read about Janissaries. I thought the Turks finally had a strong infantry base in the Janissaries to act as a base of maneuver for their cav, but in the game they are quite fragile and glass cannon like. I know they are linear units, and can bring more muskets to bear, but it seems that the massive tercios can still outshoot them by weight of numbers. In my experience I need 3 janissaries for one Tercio to win the fire fight. And the wily AI will just close to melee if it looks like it might not last through a few more turns of shooting, making it unshootable, and letting its natural POAs in impact and melee carry the day.

Basically, I miss having a tough sword armed medieval infantry unit that can mix it up in melee.

I am also iffy on cavalry evade mechanics, but I try to shoot curaissiers , they laugh it off (probably arrows versus armor causing that), they charge, my cav fail to evade, curaissiers shoot pistols at impact, sipahis disordered, next melee turn Sipahis fragmented . I can flank and win with multiple cav, but then the chasing router thing happens. I can't even support my cav in any way with inf once melee has been joined. I remember the Turks in Eternal empire being very shooty and very hard to catch. I can easily have 3 cavalry archers shooting and disordering enemy archers and crossbows. Here I have seen my cavalry get disordered by one salvo from a Pike and shot block, while the Pike and shot takes arrows after arrows (or shot after shot from carbines) and they keep on ticking.

What should be my purchase priority? I usually take one heavy gun, max Janissaries, max skirmishers, take a tartar and balkan horse, rest on Sipahis and levies to fill out residuals.

[simacole]

The veteran Jannaissaries are outstanding troops. They shoot at 83 and there is not much in the game that can match their firepower. They can hold their own in melee too, just don't ask them to fight cavalry or pikes in the open. Stick a line of them on rough ground on a hill and they will more than hold their ground against later tercio. On middle difficulty against the AI the Turkish cavalry win out every time against bog standard imperial Kurrassiers and arquebusiers. Imperial cavalry will beat timarot's in melee, only to have them break-off, leaving that unit and another couple of bow armed cavalry units to pepper them with arrows. I don't bother with the Balkan horse. If it can't shoot I don't want it. I do max out the Sipahi's of the Porte when I need to hold the line in melee or go in for the kill against disorganised heavy cavalry. Seriously, the Turks are a great army in P&S. I have more trouble winning with the Turks against Poles and Transylvanians than the conventional musket/pike/kurrassier army.

[rbodleyscott]

Your Cavalry won't evade because Cavalry don't evade in Pike and Shot. We tried it and it made life too easy for the Turks. Of course they can in FOGR, but only when in a single line, which isn't always practicable. However, if they had been allowed to evade in P&S they would always be able to evade - as they can in FOGPC. Anyway, we did test it and it made them far too good.

As simacole says, the Turks are a very good army in P&S, particularly against the earlier Imperial armies - up until 1632. However, they do require an entirely different tactical approach. Of course, the Turks in practice usually fought with their Janissaries behind field fortifications. For open battles they need to use the terrain to their advantage, and then you won't need to lose cavalry trying to defend them.

The cavalry should not try to match the enemy cavalry head on. They need to spread out as far as possible and force the enemy to advance into a pocket so that they can be flanked. You don't need to start the battle by attacking, just send forth some light horse to annoy the enemy and draw them out of position. The AI won't send all its cavalry after the light horse, but you should be able to draw off one or two units. If you can get the light horse behind their lines, you can keep evading the enemy horse that come after them then coming back to shoot them, until their morale collapses. Then you can use the light horse to ride down their artillery.

Try to shoot at the enemy cavalry with your artillery and with light horse as well - that will soon crack their morale. Don't start shooting your artillery at the infantry until they are within shooting range of your infantry, because the chances of routing enemy infantry by artillery fire alone isn't that high.

In melee, Pistol(Melee) horse are +100 POA up against Swordsmen cavalry if the Pistol horse are Steady, but the Swordsmen cavalry are +100 POA up if the Pistol horse are unsteady (Disordered, Disrupted etc). Use this to you advantage as much as possible.

If you manage local numerical superiority so that you can face one unit of Imperial horse with two units of cavalry, place them so that the Imperials cannot charge either unit without the other being able to charge them in the flank next turn. Then shoot them till they break.

[kongxinga]

Thank you all for the detailed tips. I will try to leave my Janissaries in rough terrain to free up more cavalry.

I also did not know about the huge melee POA change when melee pistols go from steady to disordered versus swords, but I reread that table and there it was! is there some historical basis for such a big swing if the Pistols are disordered? Is it because they are supposed to be firing in salvoes? I thought melee pistols meant firing their spare pistols in quick succession. Or is this modelling that in a disordered melee, it was hard to shoot your pistol without accidentally friendly firing, while a swordsman just has to concentrate on slashing the enemy next to him? Either way, this is very good to know.

On Janissaries in melee, am I reading this correctly that once I disorder a keil I am pretty much at the same footing in melee? Swords get 100 POA against non steady pikes, but keils get 100 if not severely disordered. My better trained Janissaries usually can negate the better armor.

I keep that one Balkan horse because of its great speed, and because it seems the only impact ready unit in the line up, so they can counter charge keils that charge as well as sword cavalry.

How should I think about the shooting rating of 83 on my veteran Janissaries? Is that 83 casualties per full salvo? I know more is better?

For later turks their Timariots have a choice of bow or carbine, with the same shooting power. Should I prefer one over another?

Good to know about the evasion. I reread that part of the manual, so I will keep my light horse as charge bait near the front instead of keeping them back as shooters as I am doing now. Seems that the enemy will charge my cavalry, and then my light horse can only watch the melee. If the light horse evades out, it sets up the enemy cavalry for a nice counter charge if for example I can make them charge into Janissaries in the rough for the auto disorder.

I seem to be able to understand the poles and Hungarians/Translyvanians more, which is basically shoot and charge with heavy gendarmes. The Turkish cavalry seems pretty bad at impact, save for the barely passable Balkan horse.

[rbodleyscott]

is there some historical basis for such a big swing if the Pistols are disordered?

It is because the tactical doctrine of the pistol armed cavalry we term Horse was to maintain strict formation. A looser melee would better suit the fencing character of the Ottoman horse.

On Janissaries in melee, am I reading this correctly that once I disorder a keil I am pretty much at the same footing in melee? Swords get 100 POA against non steady pikes, but keils get 100 if not severely disordered. My better trained Janissaries usually can negate the better armor.

Yes, and there isn't any armour advantage against shot-armed Janissaries.

How should I think about the shooting rating of 83 on my veteran Janissaries? Is that 83 casualties per full salvo? I know more is better?

It is just a rating and a general guide. The combat ratings are not used to calculate the results of combat, on the contrary they are calculated from the combat resolution routines.

For later turks their Timariots have a choice of bow or carbine, with the same shooting power. Should I prefer one over another?

The Turkish cavalry preferred the bow, and resisted pressure to re-arm. I will leave you to decide whether they were right.

The Turkish cavalry seems pretty bad at impact.

They like to soften the enemy up first. Or hit them in the flank.

[KiwiWarlord]

Just finished the battle that I started on Sunday, Ottomans vs Imperialist, Large Forces Large map.
Played with no real finesse, just made use of ground where I could, sent Lt Horse around the flanks and rear, positioned 4 artillery batteries on a hill and went for it.
Result, Ottomans with 10,000 troops, 58%, Imp with 17500 troops, 62%.Much fighting and a very close result.
The Ottoman cavalry destroyed all the Imp. artillery, Janissaries performed well, one unit of Vets held off attacks in the rear, flank and front by Imp Kurassiers and Arkebusiers for over a turn in the open. The Imp. Later Tercios suffered badly to shooting.
The Ottoman cavalry did not seem as bad as you implied. Ottoman skirmishing foot have a good amount of firepower, I used them in groups of two-three shooting at one target, backed by artillery if possible.
I think that a little more practise using different battlefield tactics will see you right, Ottomans are good.