Within.....

[Primarch]

Ok, I know Mark was going to post this, but im impetuous so I have to go ahead and do it.



In a recent game, one player double moved and then in the shooting phase, fired his light artillery. I couldnt find anything in the rules to prevent this, however, it brings up an interesting point.


The movement restrictions say you cant move within 6 MU of enemy on the 2nd move. So when the arty moved up it would have to stay OUTSIDE 6MU from enemy, in my opinion this would not allow for it to shoot in the following phase, since the range was 6MU. Everyone with me so far?


Now, if the ability to march(double move) and shoot was intended, that opens up other considerations. Namely, Javelin armed skirmishers. If you ever move up to Javelin range and shoot at the front edge of enemy, you are automatically pinnied. If you arent pinned when you move up and your front edge is exactly AT 2MUs, then any pivot, turn, twist, 180, will go "within" 2MU and you would become pinned. Is all that clear?


Basically here is the question. For shooting and movment, we need a clear definition of what the designers intent is. I have a measuring device that can fit exactly between 2 bases, can i shoot if the device touches both bases? Do i have to be at 3.999999 to be able to shoot at a range of 4.0 MUs?


Hope that was clear as mud, and in almost every other game ive played, this "discussion" has come up, and it usually gets heated from both sides.


Any help?



Clay

[WhiteKnight]

Light Artillery cannot shoot if it moves in its manouvre phase in any way...middle section p81.

"Within" is defined on p 136....at or closer than. So if you move a second move, you cannot shoot as you are not allowed to go within 6MU. So his Light Art couldn't shoot at you in your shooting phase unless you had moved towards him!

Jav and HG shooters do have to be within 2MU to shoot. They are indeed then pinned. If the shooters are skirmishers, then their opponents are not pinned.

Hoping this helps

Martin

[Primarch]

Wow, just wow. This really might be the most well written ruleset ive seen in years. That means in fact, that it cannot pivot and shoot either, just like heavy artillery. Wow.


Thanks a ton for the reply, I've only had the rulebook about a week or so now, so still searching things out.


Clay

[WhiteKnight]

Yes, Clay, I agree about it being a well-written ruleset, but you do have to remember that things mean what they say! Heavy artillery can't pivot at all, cos heavy artillery are not allowed to move, and not move means not move!...unlike in some rules where not move allows a move, ie pivotting!

The only quibbles I (and many others) have with the rules are the poor indexing and crossreferencing, (and there being no detatchable laminated QRS!) but these have both been addressed...see the index available on this forum and the QRS on the yahoo one!

Happy fogging

Martin

[bigdamnhero]

Surely some bow can double move, stop at 6MU and shoot - albeit with reduced dice<

I like the idea of the 'danger zone' and pinning. It certainly stops the skirmishers sauntering across a long line of pilum armed heavies and nipping around the side.

Im presuming also that once any manoeuvering takes place within 2MU of an enemy, you instantly become restricted to fewer moves?

Th idea of moving skirmishers within or at 2MU's is to shoot, then draw out the badguys ina badly timed charge. then promptly evade behind the nasty unshaven axe-wielding homocidal maniacs you have waiting foe that to happen!

For me, the use of LH/LF make this game for me. In others systems, skirmishers are surplus to requirements and once they flee, they rarely stop until they leave the field of battle. Which for me is unrealistic. Surely the point of LF/LH is to harass and always flee an agressor - except for perhaps other LF/LH?

I have had a cracking game of late with MikeH and the heavies didnt even get into the scrap. All of the BG's involved were LF/LH - like an ancient dogfight. All the points were won in those engagements...oh, and the bad guys in this case won. (I strategically fled the field in a cloud of dust..and other things!).

Kepp that harassment fire going -it relly bugs an opponent when your BG's of LF/LH force CT's every turn and eventually breaking 12 bases of heavy warband! (Dont like it up 'em!)

[rogerg]

Surely bow cannot get to 6MU with a double move and shoot. Same rule as discussed earlier. A double move must be entirely outside that distance. 'Not within' is 'not at or closer than'. 'Not at' being the key part.

[WhiteKnight]

Yup, to emphasize the point myself and RogerG are making, troops who double move CANNOT shoot as they may not move within 6", their move ends at 6" and a bit! Seriously, they stop at 6" but are deemed to be just over that distance away for the purposes of shooting etc

Martin