HYW Continental English (ME) vs. Medieval Swiss 800pts

[Kiwi]

ARMY LISTS
We were toying with various lists in prep. for an upcoming regional tournament
HYW English
3 x TC
4BG - MF Longbow, 8 bases per BG
2BG - HF Armoured Superior, 8 bases per BG
2BG - HF Armoured Superior (Gascon), 8 bases per BG

Swiss (from my poor memory)
1 x IC
2 x TC
6BG - Pikeman, 12-16 bases per (i think)
2BG - LF Handgunners, 6 bases per

TERRAIN SETUP
Starting off I lost initiative meaning the Swiss started with the choice of terrain, and we ended up with a board full of steep hills and impassable areas. I made the mistake of adding to that collection and narrowing the frontage of the battle. But we ended with the following basic setup (looking from my side)

- Left 1/4 of table - covered in terrain so basically out of bounds
- Middle 1/2 of table - open terrain flanked by steep hills, with a much wider section of open ground in my half
- Right 1/4 of table - opp. side edge blocked in, mine fairly open with one SH at about 1/2 way

Basically the battle had two set up areas the middle 1/2 with that wide open space - and a smaller 1/4 on the right where the Swiss would be funnelled through a narrow gap between terrain before hitting the wide open space.

ARMY SET UP
HYW English
HF 1x8, HF 4x2, MF 4x2, MF 4x2, HF 4x2, MF 4x2, MF 4x2, HF 1x8

Swiss
LF 1x6, 2 BG of Pike with 1 in rear support, 1 BG Pike, LF, 2 BG Pike

TURNS 1-3
HYW English moved first with the main battleline moving forward the maximum 6 MU and the two supporting columns advancing behind, the right flank column moving right toward a gap in the terrain. Swiss handgunners moved fwd to position on Steep Hills on either flank, with Pikes splitting into two groups. Main force came straight ahead at the left & middle portion of my battleline, a smaller force of 2 Pike BG went through a the terrain gap on my right flank.

The main English battle line halted to give the Bowmen as many turns as possible to shoot while the 2 right flank MF BG's split off to focus on the Pikeman funnelling through the terrain gap on the right flank, advancing slightly further forward to do so. The Pikes continued to advance straight ahead coming with max. range of the bows on the English left flank (now the centre). Early shooting proved suprisingly effective with 2 bases removed from one Pike BG and a drop in 1 cohesion level caused by one BG over 2 rounds. However, the other unit never scored enough hits to force any CMT rolls. The ENglish HF on the left then decided to charge the Pikes to prevent them doing the same to the Bowmen - HF with Heavy Weapon meant they were at a -1 POA against the 4 ranks of pikes but the longer battleline meet a 2 base overlap in melee. THe charge actually payed off (surprisingly) with the HF winning both the impact and melee, causing the Pike to lose a base but not (that damn IC) a cohesion level. On the right flank the other bows scored good hits on the pikes funnelling through the narrow pass in the terrain dropping one group 1 cohesion level. But unfortunately, the enemies IC allowed them to pass the other forced tests.

RESULTS SO FAR - 2 Swiss BG disrupted, 1 with 2 lost bases, and 1 with 1 lost base --> English no damage

TURNS 4-6
This is where things went pear shaped for the main English battleline with the Pikes charging full tilt into the MF and HF not already engaged. Supporting fire in the impact phase helped score a lot of hits on the Pikes but again the Swiss IC helped them pass their CMT tests, although 1 more base was lost. The English CMT rolls were not as good though (my decision to take 3 TC was costing me) - losing combat to HF in open ground at -1 and -2 POA meant I had to roll 10's to pass most CMT's. Unfortunately the poor English were not at their best and failed EVERY SINGLE CMT roll during the entire battle. Both MF BG's were routed and feld- although a lot of lucky dice rolls and the presence of the HF on the right helped prolong the battle by drawing a few melee combats - and on the extreme left the HF that had charged was decimated when a second Pike BG charged them. On the right flank the Pikes had now made it through the narrow pass and both BG charged a single unit of longbows.

RESULT - 4 English BG routed and 1 Fragmented meaning with only 8 BG to start with the army had reached its maximum attrition value

KEY LESSONS
The Swiss IC helped them significantly, while the ENglish lack of one cost them. In most cases I needed the Swiss to be on -4 or -6 in the CMT to get them to fail, and with MF fighting HF Pike in the open that was exceedingly difficult. Other big problem was that 2 entire HF BG on the ENglish side were never engaged and played no real part in the battle. Perhaps some Cavalry might have helped?

SHooting was good but unless you can force those CMT and get the enemy to fail them before any charge MF will get eaten alive by HF in open ground.

[hammy]

Superior troops with rear support and an IC are VERY hard to upset with shooting. The key to using Swiss is to keep focussed, keep together and get stuck in. Sounds fair to me.

[Agesilaus]

I am still learning this game too but it seems to me the main lessons are tactical, not force composition. Superior Pike should always beat bow frontally but the bow get more frontage and speed, so why not use them to maneuver onto his flanks? Also, as you said there is no point agreeing to heaps of terrain when you are the one who wanted more open space to shoot and advance across.

[rbodleyscott]

I can't think of any reason why the English would not want as much terrain as possible. Bowmen like terrain, pikes don't.

The mistake was in attempting to meet the pike frontally with longbows in the open. This will almost never succeed.

Much better to have a solid line of men at arms in the middle and all the longbows in terrain on the flanks.

[Kiwi]

Yeah i role played it again later and realised my original set up was all wrong