Light troops in contact with baggage

[ravenflight]

Hi All,

I had a situation in a game today. I had a BG of Lighthorse in contact with my baggage like this:


M Y B A S E E D G E M Y B A S E E D G E M Y B A S E E D G E


3 MU gap







= dastardly enemy light horse
= heroic Japanese baggage
= Heroic Ashigaru facing up the page toward the dastardly enemy light horse.

At the end of the turn the dastardly enemy light horse ( ) failed to stop looting.

In the impact phase my heroic Ashigaru ( ) charged the dastardly enemy light horse ( ).

My opponent claimed that he could evade as the rules say that he can only not evade if he's in combat... which he isn't. I guess I have to agree that he wasn't in combat, and I couldn't find anything that said that he couldn't evade... but it seemed counter intuitive.

Anyone have an answer (which chapter and verse please).

[MatteoPasi]

He can evade, if the baggage was fortified and till alive he couldn't
Matteo

[ravenflight]

He can evade, if the baggage was fortified and till alive he couldn't
Matteo

I read that the other way. If the Bagage is alive he isn't looting and is free to move, but given he's looting and hasn't passed a CMT to stop looting he's stuck.

If I'm wrong about not being able to evade then I certainly think he could evade if it was a fortified camp.

[quackstheking]

Here's my take on it with various rules references. My view is they can evade, but as it looks like they're being charged in the flank they must evade directly away from the chargers which in this instance takes them off table!:-

1) p.114 ist Paragraph makes it clear that when sacking an unfortified camp no COMBAT takes place.

2) p.82 states that light troops must pass a CMT to receive a charge by battle troops (and must evade if they fail) unless they are already in close combat - which they're not - they are looting!

3) p.87 states that Light Troops can always evade , unless they are in close combat (which we know they're not) - so they can evade

4) p.88 As they are being charged in the flank, they cannot evade to their own rear so must Evade directly away from the charge - hence off table!

QED!

However if it were a fortified camp (and who takes one of them - not even the Madaxeman and loses his camp often enough!), then they would not be looting, as they are deemed to be fighting the defenders which is resolved in the melee phase so they couldn't evade in the IMpact phase!

Happy to be shot down!

Don

[ravenflight]

Here's my take on it with various rules references. My view is they can evade, but as it looks like they're being charged in the flank they must evade directly away from the chargers which in this instance takes them off table!:-

1) p.114 ist Paragraph makes it clear that when sacking an unfortified camp no COMBAT takes place.

2) p.82 states that light troops must pass a CMT to receive a charge by battle troops (and must evade if they fail) unless they are already in close combat - which they're not - they are looting!

3) p.87 states that Light Troops can always evade , unless they are in close combat (which we know they're not) - so they can evade

4) p.88 As they are being charged in the flank, they cannot evade to their own rear so must Evade directly away from the charge - hence off table!

QED!

However if it were a fortified camp (and who takes one of them - not even the Madaxeman and loses his camp often enough!), then they would not be looting, as they are deemed to be fighting the defenders which is resolved in the melee phase so they couldn't evade in the IMpact phase!

Happy to be shot down!

Don

Agree with most of this... except the last point.

I don't have my rules on hand, but in the specific section where it talks about Sacking camps and mentions fortified camps, it is specified that they can leave at any time (in essence) and so isn't really a combat akin to any other sort.

As you say though NO sane person takes a fortified camp - and - we played it the way you've suggested with the dastardly lighthorse fleeing for their cowardly lives from Oda's heroic Ashigaru. I'm sure the Geisha were glad to be comforted by the Ashigaru afterwards... damned tartars... or cosscaks... or whatever they were.

[quackstheking]

Agree with most of this... except the last point.

I don't have my rules on hand, but in the specific section where it talks about Sacking camps and mentions fortified camps, it is specified that they can leave at any time (in essence) and so isn't really a combat akin to any other sort.

As you say though NO sane person takes a fortified camp - and - we played it the way you've suggested with the dastardly lighthorse fleeing for their cowardly lives from Oda's heroic Ashigaru. I'm sure the Geisha were glad to be comforted by the Ashigaru afterwards... damned tartars... or cosscaks... or whatever they were.[/quote]

Agreed - p114 last paragraph!

[daveallen]

4) p.88 As they are being charged in the flank, they cannot evade to their own rear so must Evade directly away from the charge - hence off table

Not necessarily off table (unless they want to), when their evade brings them to the table edge they have the option to turn 90 degrees and continue to evade.

Dave

[quackstheking]

4) p.88 As they are being charged in the flank, they cannot evade to their own rear so must Evade directly away from the charge - hence off table

Not necessarily off table (unless they want to), when their evade brings them to the table edge they have the option to turn 90 degrees and continue to evade.

Dave

I don't have my rules with me but I thought that option didn't apply with your own baseline, only the flanks edges!

Don

[kevinj]

I haven't checked in the rules, but I'm struggling to see how you could loot the enemy's baggage from your own baseline...

[ravenflight]

I haven't checked in the rules, but I'm struggling to see how you could loot the enemy's baggage from your own baseline...

Well, your own baggage does not have to start on your own base edge, and we were playing on very very small tables...

[ravenflight]

4) p.88 As they are being charged in the flank, they cannot evade to their own rear so must Evade directly away from the charge - hence off table

Not necessarily off table (unless they want to), when their evade brings them to the table edge they have the option to turn 90 degrees and continue to evade.

Dave

Yeah, checked... seems a bit counter-intuitive. They turn then turn... but yes, in our example they would have almost certainly been caught as my heroic Ashigaru were more at an angle than shown above and he would have had to roll up about 8 and me down about 3 to not catch him.

[mgdavey]

This is odd, because the same issue cam up in a game I was playing this past weekend. In this case, the sacking cossacks were mine, and the charging troops were Tatar dragoons.

Question 1 was could they shoot at the sacking cossacks? I saw nothing in the rules that said they couldn't.
Question 2 was could they charge, and I agree with the discussion here they could. But are we also saying they could bounce 90 degrees off the rear table edge? It's unclear to me from the discussion.

Thanks,