First later seleucid list

[Fulgrim]

Hi!
This is my fist conversion of my DBM Seleucids to FOG:

1 FC
2TC

6 Archers MF Average
6 Slingers LF Average
6 Thorakitai MF

4 Companions
4 Agema Superior
4 Skythian LH

12 Agyraspids
12 Phalanx
2 Elephants

652pts

Comments and suggestions are more than welcome

[SirGarnet]

I haven't played the list, but three minor comments.

You might consider more articulation among the Pikes with three 8-base BGs.

Since second rank archers shoot 1 dice per 2, 6 MF archers two-deep in effective range roll 4 dice while 8 archers would roll 6. So 6 is not a sweet spot. I think most people, however, would not take the MF archers at all with this army but would look for more screening LF or spearmen to guard the flanks of the Pikes and Elephants.

MF are usually best near the end of the order of march so they are harder for the opponent to match-up against.

Mike

[expendablecinc]

I'd also drop the FC and take a TC CinC and more of something else.

[rbodleyscott]

6 Thorakitoi may not be enough to bully enemy MF if they have more. I would consider taking the Thracians as well. (Even if it means dropping the elephants or one of the BGs of cavalry).

[Fulgrim]

Thanks for the input! im going to work over the list again wiht your suggestions in mind.

Are 8BG pikes viable? I fugered that 12 could be placed 3x4 for power or 4x3 for coverage. 8 loses the flexibility i would belive, 2x4 for power but for coverage?

I havent finshed my all Thracians yet, dint use them in DBM (or atleast that many of them) so i have to make due without them in my upcoming games. In the future they will be included though.

[OldenTired]

Thanks for the input! im going to work over the list again wiht your suggestions in mind.

Are 8BG pikes viable? I fugered that 12 could be placed 3x4 for power or 4x3 for coverage. 8 loses the flexibility i would belive, 2x4 for power but for coverage?

I havent finshed my all Thracians yet, dint use them in DBM (or atleast that many of them) so i have to make due without them in my upcoming games. In the future they will be included though.

call on the pikes. i've found 8s of pikes too vulnerable unless you can keep them clumped together for safety.

[Fulgrim]

Ok, finally got to play yesterday with a revised list as follows


3TC

6 Slingers LF Average
10 Phalanx
10 Phalanx

6 Archers MF Poor
4 Agema Superior
2 Elephants

6 Thorakitai MF
4 Skythian LH

4 Companions
10 Agyraspids


Reflections:
I was outmanoeuvred rather quickly by my Later Carthaginian opponent. Foremost because my pike-heavy centre didn’t get a target straight on. Ill never place that much heavy foot straight away again. The important factor was “point effectiveness” – I had more than a third of my armypoints chasing skirmishers while my opponent enveloped my position. We didn’t play until the end but I feel he would have won both flanks while I had the opportunity to contest or perhaps defeat his centre.

I will spend less points on pikes and more on cav/skirmishers and other troops to expand my line in the next game.

I feel the list and the game, at 650 pts atleast, cant produce an army that is able to reflect the battles of the Seleucid kings. Some are purely "unhistorical" BG-limitations (Galatians and Cretan archers restricted to only one BG while historical sources put groups on both flanks for some battles. Yes, Galatian foot that is.) But i guess the history is sketchy and numbers and orders of battle uncertain. It would be good though to get a list of references for the armies respectively. I rely mostly on Bezalel Bar-Kochvas work regarding the Seleucids but i dont know if its desputed theese days, can it be so?

Further; the pike blocks must be in such depth to be really effective that the front is severely shortened. This is the result of the high point/front factor of full pike blocks. The pike mechanism puts makes them only really effective at a depth of 4 when that depth really only was decisive in extended combats when causalities came into play. In the game that should basically be reflected by ranks beyond the 4th. Even at a depth of 16 they were considered the “ultimate” weapon of war at level terrain as I understand it. That is 2 bases in FOG which doesn’t do pikes anything. A depth of 24 was considered very strong and 32 a exception (as with the Egyptians at Raphia who were afraid that the better Seleucid phalanx would smash the native Egyptian phalanx otherwise).

The width of the full battle line of these armies could extend over several kilometres.

Hmm.. /rant off
I had a good time, felt the rules were pretty easy to come to grips with and that the “all-can-move” mechanism made the game give results faster compared with DBM. Im looking forward to my next game, hopefully with a not so “n00b-ish” armylist as the one above.

[OhReally]

I've only got three games in with my Maks, but I cant' see any logic in not fielding pikes in units of 12.

I have seen the trick where you do a 2x5 column for 10, but with hits only going to the first three ranks that seems crazy to me. Besides your coverage with two is very small and you don't get to throw as many dice out.

[IanB3406]

I think the important point to note is that at 650 points this is a relatively small force. Some of the Seleucid armies would be huge - look at the battle report versus Romans in this forum and I think that is more the idea of what a historical sized force would look like, as well as Luke Ueda-Sarson's web page with a detailed OB (but for another set of rules ) I do see what you mean about the Galatians as Luke shows them as groups of 4 on each wing, although there is nothing to prevent you from doing this in a scenario game.

I have used seleucid with some success, and this list from memory at 800 points is

4TC

6 Slingers LF Average
8 Archers LF AVg (much better value in this list than any MF poor archers - I would avoid them)
12 Phalanx
12 Phalanx
8 Agyraspids (I thought 8 was the maximum...maybe not)
4 Agema Superior
4 Agema Superior
4 Companions Elite
2 Elephants
6 Theuro.. MF
6 Theuro.. MF
4 Skythian LH
4 LH with Javelin

Little short as the last list I used was illegal with another Skythian battlegroup . You need the foot skirmishers to protect the pike from shooting, and they are usefull elsewhere if you don't have to use them as a screeen. This army is nice in period as not many can match the mounted and deal with the pike.

You might be better with the Thorakitai then the Theurphoroi, as mine being protected only have gotten the ***t shot out of them by skirmishers, but thems what I got painted.

[nikgaukroger]

I suspect your second MF group was actually Thracians not Thyreophoroi as you can't have 12 of them

[OhReally]

I think the important point to note is that at 650 points this is a relatively small force. Some of the Seleucid armies would be huge - look at the battle report versus Romans in this forum and I think that is more the idea of what a historical sized force would look like, as well as Luke Ueda-Sarson's web page with a detailed OB (but for another set of rules ) I do see what you mean about the Galatians as Luke shows them as groups of 4 on each wing, although there is nothing to prevent you from doing this in a scenario game.

I have used seleucid with some success, and this list from memory at 800 points is

4TC

6 Slingers LF Average
8 Archers LF AVg (much better value in this list than any MF poor archers - I would avoid them)
12 Phalanx
12 Phalanx
8 Agyraspids (I thought 8 was the maximum...maybe not)
4 Agema Superior
4 Agema Superior
4 Companions Elite
2 Elephants
6 Theuro.. MF
6 Theuro.. MF
4 Skythian LH
4 LH with Javelin

Little short as the last list I used was illegal with another Skythian battlegroup . You need the foot skirmishers to protect the pike from shooting, and they are usefull elsewhere if you don't have to use them as a screeen. This army is nice in period as not many can match the mounted and deal with the pike.

You might be better with the Thorakitai then the Theurphoroi, as mine being protected only have gotten the ***t shot out of them by skirmishers, but thems what I got painted.

Are you taking the Agyraspids as Impact Foot or Pike? I bought models for both and am painting them up now. I like the diversity of having essentially Roman Legos to support my pike line.

[Montagu]

IMO, TC commanders are almost my throwaway guys. I put them to fight in the most critical locations in the line. The bonuses of the IC are nothing to laugh at. The 12" is enough to give this bonus to many BGs close to each other.

Monty

[stenic]

My 650AP 28mm Seleucid list - Mind you, that was before I was made aware that Cats are not 2 dice per base in combat

CinC FC - - - - - - CinC 1
Sub General TC - - - - - - - 2
Cataphracts Ct Heavily armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4
Cataphracts Ct Heavily armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4
Argyraspides HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 8
Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 12
Phalanx HF Protected Average Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 12
Horse Archers LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - - - 4
Archers LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - - - 6
Thureophoroi MF Protected Average Drilled - Offensive spearmen Spearmen - 6
Elephants EL - Average - - - - - 2


Steve