Anglo-Portuguese list in the Rules Book

[timt9cole]

A few comments on the list:

Not sure why the Portuguese need to be in a Division with British. It was typical but the southern army that fought at Albuera included Hamilton's Portuguese Division
The Light Division had two brigades, each made up of one or two British Light battalions, up to a battalion equivalent of British rifles and a Portuguese Cacadore battalion. There are plenty of rifles in both brigades but no need to insist on them being in skirmish order - there are more than enough troops that would not have to be.
I am not sure why a British Light infantry brigade sould have the possibility of rifles other than as a skirmisher attachment.
I presume the big difference between British Dragoons and Dragoon Guards is just to give the list a bit of colour - not sure that contemporaries would have recognised this.
Portuguese infantry brigades increasingly had a Cacadore battalion as part of their set up during this period. should that give them sufficient rifles to count as Rifles?
I am not aware of Portuguese Cacadores being brigaded together to form a unit.
Portuguese Dragoons were notoriously poor during this period but Poor is not even an option
With the Spanish Allies I would be curious to know the source for giving their attachment rifles - not saying it is wrong but not something I have come across.

Perhaps these points are all too fussy and the lists are just a bit of fun for competition players. Unfortunately many of us wargamers (myself included, obviously) are probably a bit too obsessed with detail and like to "get it right" as we see it.

Regards
Tim

[hazelbark]

IIRC by the end of the pennisula the coalition divisions were commonly 3 brigades. 1-2 of these brigades were portugeuse.

English Brigade 2-3 Battalions
Port Brigade 2 Regiments of 2 battalions and a Cacadore battalion.

That was roughly common I thought by 1812-13

[timt9cole]

"IIRC by the end of the pennisula the coalition divisions were commonly 3 brigades. 1-2 of these brigades were portugeuse.

English Brigade 2-3 Battalions
Port Brigade 2 Regiments of 2 battalions and a Cacadore battalion.

That was roughly common I thought by 1812-13"


_ Agreed that it was common enough in 1810-11, which the list in the book covers, but since the notes mention Albuera where there was a distinct Portuguese division why make it compulsory to put the Portuguese in divisions with the British?

[terrys]

I am not sure why a British Light infantry brigade sould have the possibility of rifles other than as a skirmisher attachment.

A skirmisher attachment (at 10pts), isn't good value as a method of adding riiles to a light infantry unit.
The decision we came to is that a light infantry unit has a proportion of rifles then we grant it 'Rifles' as a capability. This could be any number from a single company to a full regiment.
As a comparison:
4 bases of light infantry with rifles = 52 points.
4 bases of light infantry with a rifle attachment = 58 points.

It makes no difference to the unit whether you have 1 stand or 4 stands as riflemen. We allowed it to be 4 because there are players out there with full rifle battalions (for use with other rules) who would otherwise never be able to use all of them. We don't expect players to (generally) field all bases as rifles.

[Astronomican]

From what you are saying, if any Brigade has a whiff of a "special" ability, such as rifle-armed skirmishers, then it can be classified as having that ability, even if the ability is for one company out of the entire Brigade!

A glance through any OOB for the Anglo-Portuguese in the Peninsular War shows that the vast majority of Brigades have a company (or more) of riflemen attached to them.

So for the FOG-N Anglo-Portuguese lists, should every Brigade have the ability "Rifles"?


Jimi

[terrys]

From what you are saying, if any Brigade has a whiff of a "special" ability, such as rifle-armed skirmishers, then it can be classified as having that ability, even if the ability is for one company out of the entire Brigade!

The unit is a regiment not a brigade (althhough not much different for the British). When we assess whether or not a unit has a 'rifle' capability or not we usually we consider that about 300-400 are required, but if only 200-300 are present then it becomes a bit more of a judgemental call.

A glance through any OOB for the Anglo-Portuguese in the Peninsular War shows that the vast majority of Brigades have a company (or more) of riflemen attached to them.

Only light infantry can have the special capability of 'rifles'. Most units are not entirely of light infantry, and therefore would only gain the 'rifle' capability by adding an attachment.

So for the FOG-N Anglo-Portuguese lists, should every Brigade have the ability "Rifles"?
We allow a higher number of skirmisher attachments (whether rifle or not) in the British list of the period. It's up to the player to decide exactly how many he want to use. At up to 3 per division that could be almost all of your units. Of course that means that each unit would cost 20-25% more.

[timt9cole]

"The unit is a regiment not a brigade (althhough not much different for the British)."

I do not think the suggestion is that the rules are not "Regimental" for armies other than the British but in the case of the British they are clearly not Regimental but Brigade. For example, at Salamanca, three regiments had two battalions present (but two of these do not even make up a unit) and the 95th have a battalion and two half battalions in two separate brigades. All the other regiments had only one battalion present. On the other hand, the British Brigades fit very nicely into the unit categories. I should not worry if British Armies refer to the units as brigades - they are not trying to undermine the rules basis, simply to acurately describe Anglo-Portuguese units.


"When we assess whether or not a unit has a 'rifle' capability or not we usually we consider that about 300-400 are required, but if only 200-300 are present then it becomes a bit more of a judgemental call."

Seeing this definition (which would have been useful in the rules ) actually reduces the number of British units with rifle capability enormously. Apart from the Light Division (where the two brigades qualify comfortably) and Halkett's Brigade with 2 KGL light battalions I can only see one other unit which would qualify. The Portuguses brigades have one company of the Cacadore regiment (say 100 men max) whilst most other British brigades have a company of 5/60th or Brunswick Oels. Even my other unit, Wallace's brigade of the 3rd Division with three companies of 5/60th, only manages 254 men and so is judgemental.

Regards
Tim

[Bar853]

Just popping this to the top. It might be of some intrest to some.

[adonald]

Why?

Alastair