Using commander for cohesion test and combat...

Montagu · Post by **Montagu** » Sun May 18, 2008 4:37 am

Here is the situation: 2 BGs which are in combat. One of the BGs has a commander but not currently on the front rank (ie fighting in the combat). The BG w/o the commander rolls for cohesion and I use the commanders bonuses because he isn't in combat and he is in range. Now, (still in the same melee/impact phase) the other BG, which has a commander, is about to roll to hit but I decide to put the commander in the front rank to increase the chances of getting hits. Is this allowed?

Thanks

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Sun May 18, 2008 5:27 am

Two relevant rules that should clear it up:

"A battle group in close combat can only count a commander who is with it." (p113) So BGs without a commander don't get any bonuses.

For fighitng in the front rank:
"The declaration is made before any close combat dice are rolled." (p99) In the front rank he can only affect his own BG.

Mike

Montagu · Post by **Montagu** » Sun May 18, 2008 4:35 pm

MikeK wrote:Two relevant rules that should clear it up:

"A battle group in close combat can only count a commander who is with it." (p113) So BGs without a commander don't get any bonuses.

But Mike, the next bullet point says "A commander with a battle group in close combat can influence other eligible battle groups unless he is fighting in the front rank." Which I take to mean, he could influence other close by BGs too.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Sun May 18, 2008 4:38 pm

Montagu wrote:
MikeK wrote:Two relevant rules that should clear it up:

"A battle group in close combat can only count a commander who is with it." (p113) So BGs without a commander don't get any bonuses.
But Mike, the next bullet point says "A commander with a battle group in close combat can influence other eligible battle groups unless he is fighting in the front rank." Which I take to mean, he could influence other close by BGs too.

Correct he can but he cannot influence other BGs that are also in close combat....

A commander with an unengaged BG or on his own can influence any BGs not in combat within his command radius
A commander with an engaged BG can influence that BG and any other unengaged BG within his command radius
A commander fighting in the front rank of a BG increases the quality of that BG for combat rolls by 1 and can only influence that BG.

Montagu · Post by **Montagu** » Sun May 18, 2008 5:19 pm

Thank you. That makes it 100% clear to me now.

j2klbs · Post by **j2klbs** » Mon May 19, 2008 5:15 pm

A variation on the above question which came up in a game of mine last night.

Suppose a commander is fighting from the front rank and his BG breaks. There is a friendly BG within 3 MU's which must now make a cohesion test for seeing its friends break.

Appendix 8 shows that this test occurs after post-combat cohesion tests, death rolls and commander losses BUT before making initial rout moves.

So, my question is at what point is the commander considered to be no longer fighting from the front. If he is not considered to be fighting from the front as soon as his unit breaks, then the nearby units witnessing the break would benefit from his commander effect. However, if he is still considered to be fighting from the front even after the BG's breaks (until he makes the flee move), then the nearby units would not benefit from his presence. Which one is the correct way to play?

Thanks!
Jason

marshalney2000 · Post by **marshalney2000** » Mon May 19, 2008 8:06 pm

An interesting point but I don't think the other groups could count any benefit from him at that point. Other than it being a little irrational that the troops would say "Hey there goes our General in rout, I feel really encouraged." I think we need to consider that if the enemy remain in contact at the end of the pursuit then the general is eligible to be killed on a 10,11 or 12 on the dice. This would indicate that he is still a bit at the sharp end.
John

marty · Post by **marty** » Tue May 20, 2008 12:22 am

Does a unit acting as an overlap count as "in combat" and require a general to be with it to claim the +1?

Martin

Montagu · Post by **Montagu** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:03 am

I would think that if they are rolling dice then they are in combat.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:38 am

Commanders declared as in close combat cannot leave the front rank until it is no longer in combat and no longer in contact with enemy routers.

In the Glossary, they "are deemed to be in close combat until one side . . . breaks " and the post combat cohesion tests are completed BEFORE any seeing routers tests, so the Commander in theory could be out of the front rank immediately after the break. Joining the front rank is a declaration, not a move, so I believe he is then immediately out of the front rank and just with the BG that is about to rout back.

WhiteKnight · Post by **WhiteKnight** » Tue May 20, 2008 8:34 am

A commander is fighting in the front rank of a BG. THe BG breaks. The commander routs with it and while he is with the routing BG he may not use his "influence" in any CMT or CT....see p 101, first bullet point. If the BG is caught in the back, there is a commander death roll on a 10, 11, 12. The same bullet point also says the commander may not leave the rouing BG until the JAP, at the "move commander" point.
Close combat ends as soon as one side breaks, so if the breaking/broken BG above is caught in the back whilst routing the commander is not in close combat, but is still ineligible to use his influence for the reason given. If the BG is still in contact with pursuers at the beginning of the the JAP, he may not leave the BG ( see p50, second column, first bullet point )and must be diced for again. If his group outruns the pursuit by the JAP, he may leave the group at the apponted time...4th event of the JAP...and move, once again able to exert his influence.

Hope I've got it right and it helps!

martin