This is to follow-up a an unresolved thread from the Yahoo group about terrain visibility rules. I searched this forum for "forest" and didn't find anything on this.
RULES: Forest on p131: "Troops wholly inside are only visible within 2 MUs. . . . Troops beyond a forest cannot be seen."
On p132, "Terrain blocks line of sight beyond the visibility distances specified above."
Text discussion wasn't making things clear, so there is a diagram with 4 alternative terrain visibility scenarios below that I believe apply the rules. Are these each correct?
(Note the 2 MU applies to forests, other distances apply to other blocking terrain.)
Observer|-------------2 MU---------->|_______________Troops
________V
1. FORESTFORESTFOREST_________________________________________
1=Troops visible since no blocking forest terrain exists beyond 2 MU
2. FORESTFORESTFORESTFORESTFORESTFOREST_______________________
2=Troops not visible since there is blocking Forest beyond 2 MU
3. __________FORESTFOREST_________________________________
3=Troops not visible since Troops are "beyond a Forest"
4. _____________________________________FORESTFORESTFORESTFOREST__
4=Not visible because Troops are "wholly inside" a Forest and distance over 2 MU.
Also not visible because there is blocking Forest beyond 2 Mu.
Thanks,
Mike
Line of Sight Visibility -- Forests
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Line of Sight Visibility -- Forests
Last edited by SirGarnet on Sat May 03, 2008 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
See scenario 4 above for people looking for them, scenario 1 for them looking out.pyruse wrote:What is the visibility of troops just inside a forest - say 1 MU from the edge?
Can they be seen by anyone outside, or only by people within 2MU, and is visibility mutual - can they only see people within 2MU of them if there is any amount of forest, no matter how small, in the way?
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rbodleyscott
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Some of the rules authors are unavailable at the moment. I did not want to attempt a definitive answer until we have had a chance to discuss it between ourselves.pyruse wrote:It would be nice to get an answer to this question from one of the rules authors; for some reason we get only stony silence.
. The perfect worldI think you put it well there:
The visibility rules as I understand them (see above) seemed simple enough on the table, so I was trying to find out what problematic issues might require an official conclave. I came up with the following:
1. Terrain in which only LF can be concealed is not "blocking" terrain for the rule on p 132 (i.e., that it only conceals LF inside, not beyond it). This may not have been specified on grounds of brevity and obviousness.
2. Only certain terrain can conceal non-LF:
--The rules say troops beyond a forest or plantation cannot be seen
--The rules say troops beyond a crest line of a steep or gentle hill are only visible within 1 MU. Presumably this must include those so far beyond the crest that they are past the hill.
-- Gullies: as it is a "depression" it seems obvious that troops beyond can be seen.
-- Villages: The rule is identical to forest without the "beyond" portion, so the difference seems intentional, but it might be helpful then to add that it is not blocking terrain for p132 purposes so troops beyond can be seen (if that is in fact the intention).
The rules are so comprehensive, carefully written and edited that I think we can have high confidence that any statement or omission is intentional. Even so, if players repeatedly come to conflicting interpretations then it would be helpful to have a full resolution.
Mike
There's also the visual background highlighting (blue sky) or breaking up (suitably coloured foliage) outlines so that which is seen is not recognized, or the contrary effect of motion or stray sunlight glinting off metal. I accept 2 MU as a practical distance which happens to correspond to restricted area.nigelb wrote:Troops are hiding just inside a wood's edge. They are in shadow. Troops outside, in the full light, will not be able to see them clearly from more than a short distance (i.e beyond 2MU) - but if the concealed troops can see the edge of the wood, they can see further, as troops outside are well lit. It's the shadow and trees that restrict the visibility, not simply the distance. Distance only has an effect when you consider the presence of trees as an obstruction - and you can see between them when you are close to them (the troops looking out), but not so easily when you are further from them (the troops looking in).
So - looking into or within, follow the visibility limit as a total distance; looking out, if within the visibility limit of the edge, I would say you can see clearly beyond.
The visibility rules as I understand them (see above) seemed simple enough on the table, so I was trying to find out what problematic issues might require an official conclave. I came up with the following:
1. Terrain in which only LF can be concealed is not "blocking" terrain for the rule on p 132 (i.e., that it only conceals LF inside, not beyond it). This may not have been specified on grounds of brevity and obviousness.
2. Only certain terrain can conceal non-LF:
--The rules say troops beyond a forest or plantation cannot be seen
--The rules say troops beyond a crest line of a steep or gentle hill are only visible within 1 MU. Presumably this must include those so far beyond the crest that they are past the hill.
-- Gullies: as it is a "depression" it seems obvious that troops beyond can be seen.
-- Villages: The rule is identical to forest without the "beyond" portion, so the difference seems intentional, but it might be helpful then to add that it is not blocking terrain for p132 purposes so troops beyond can be seen (if that is in fact the intention).
The rules are so comprehensive, carefully written and edited that I think we can have high confidence that any statement or omission is intentional. Even so, if players repeatedly come to conflicting interpretations then it would be helpful to have a full resolution.
Mike
The only trouble with your (very reasonable) interpretation that troops lurking 1MU inside a forest can see out but not be seen is that it appears to be unsupported by the rules, which are worded in a way that suggest that line of sight is always mutual.
I guess that is the fundamental question. Is Line of Sight mutual, and if not, under what circumstances is it not mutual?
I guess that is the fundamental question. Is Line of Sight mutual, and if not, under what circumstances is it not mutual?
I'm not seeing any automatic mutuality suggested on p 131-132. "Visible" applies to the object viewed by an observer; "see" and "seen" are specific to observer and object. Is there something somewhere else?pyruse wrote:. . . . which are worded in a way that suggest that line of sight is always mutual.
I guess that is the fundamental question. Is Line of Sight mutual, and if not, under what circumstances is it not mutual?
Mike
And I'm not even going to mention plashing.
Um, not sure what the issue is to be honest. Here's how i interpret things.
Medium Foot Bowmen can see and shoot at LF4 as the visibility for the Light Foot bowmen entirely within the forest is 2MU (Troops wholly inside are only visible within 2MU p131).
The Light Foot Bowmen can see and shoot at the Medium Foot bowmen as they are in the open (i.e. not wholly within visibility restricting terrain). However, if they do this, the Medium Foot Bowmen can then shoot back (In some cases light foot can see out but not be seen. If they shoot, however, they become visible to the battle group shot at, who can then shoot back p132).
Obviously, the Medium Foot spearmen are beyond the forest and therefore out of visibility.
THAT SAID, my interpretation is likely wrong, but the RAW seems clear to me...
One caveat though - in your example there is no blocking terrain (forest) more than 2 MU in front of the LF - if the forest extended almost to the MF then LF1, for example, would not see the MF. For shooting, however, that would not make a difference since:Luddite wrote: The Light Foot Bowmen can see and shoot at the Medium Foot bowmen as they are in the open (i.e. not wholly within visibility restricting terrain).
So once some of the LF or MF start shooting then the full BGs becaome visible to each other and can shoot if in range.If they shoot, however, they become visible to the battle group shot at, who can then shoot back[/i] p132).
As i read it, the key is that visibilty is only restricted TO 'bases wholly within' the visibility-restricting terrain. So in my example above, the MF Bows looking in at the LF have their 'sighting range' reduced to 2MU as the LF bases are 'wholly within'.MikeK wrote:One caveat though - in your example there is no blocking terrain (forest) more than 2 MU in front of the LF - if the forest extended almost to the MF then LF1, for example, would not see the MF. For shooting, however, that would not make a difference since:Luddite wrote: The Light Foot Bowmen can see and shoot at the Medium Foot bowmen as they are in the open (i.e. not wholly within visibility restricting terrain).
The LF can look out freely at the MF Bows as the MF Bows are not 'wholly within' any visibility restricting terrain. As i read it, they would be able to 'look through' any distance of forest, as long as the target BG had no bases 'wholly within that forest. So in the case above, if the LF were looking through 4 or 5 MU of forsts, as long as the MF Bows had no bases 'wholly within' the forest (i.e. they are out in the open), the Lf can still shoot. Of course, shooting then reveals their position to the MF Bows who can shoot back...
Yes, if the LF shoot, they then become visible at more than 2MU, but only to the BG they are shooting at.So once some of the LF or MF start shooting then the full BGs becaome visible to each other and can shoot if in range.If they shoot, however, they become visible to the battle group shot at, who can then shoot back[/i] p132).
I think.
Thats how i interpret it anyway.
But i've been wrong on this sort of thing in the past...Also consider "Terrain blocks line of sight beyond the visibility distances specified above." on p132 which is a general rule that affects what the LF can see (see posts above on this point).Luddite wrote:As i read it, the key is that visibilty is only restricted TO 'bases wholly within' the visibility-restricting terrain. So in my example above, the MF Bows looking in at the LF have their 'sighting range' reduced to 2MU as the LF bases are 'wholly within'.
The LF can look out freely at the MF Bows as the MF Bows are not 'wholly within' any visibility restricting terrain. As i read it, they would be able to 'look through' any distance of forest, as long as the target BG had no bases 'wholly within that forest. So in the case above, if the LF were looking through 4 or 5 MU of forsts, as long as the MF Bows had no bases 'wholly within' the forest (i.e. they are out in the open), the Lf can still shoot.
Indeed, the whole-BG-is-seen part cleanly eliminates a host of fiddly issues.Luddite wrote: Yes, if the LF shoot, they then become visible at more than 2MU, but only to the BG they are shooting at.
Luddite posted (with nice diagram):
Medium Foot Bowmen can see and shoot at LF4 as the visibility for the Light Foot bowmen entirely within the forest is 2MU (Troops wholly inside are only visible within 2MU p131).
---------------
And that is the issue - visibility for the LF is 2MU as they are entirely within the forest - as you say.
The MF bowmen in your diagram are more than 2MU from the LF, and therefore cannot see them according to the rules.
The problem is the rules don't say anything about what happens when the LOS is partly within and partly outside a forest like this - they just say that troops wholly inside a forest are only visible at 2MU, the implication being that this still applies if they are 1mm inside the forest, and you are just 3MU away from them.
Medium Foot Bowmen can see and shoot at LF4 as the visibility for the Light Foot bowmen entirely within the forest is 2MU (Troops wholly inside are only visible within 2MU p131).
---------------
And that is the issue - visibility for the LF is 2MU as they are entirely within the forest - as you say.
The MF bowmen in your diagram are more than 2MU from the LF, and therefore cannot see them according to the rules.
The problem is the rules don't say anything about what happens when the LOS is partly within and partly outside a forest like this - they just say that troops wholly inside a forest are only visible at 2MU, the implication being that this still applies if they are 1mm inside the forest, and you are just 3MU away from them.
Precisely. The rules do indeed " just say that troops wholly inside a forest are only visible at 2MU, the implication being that this still applies if they are 1mm inside the forest, and you are just 3MU away from them."
That is sufficient, and in my view not at all ambiguous. I don't see that there is a problem, as long as you don't try to read more into the words than are there. They are very carefully phrased and correct according to all the logic of physically sighting troops.
They are not visible at '1.9 MU of forest + unlimited extra distance from outside". that would contradict the rules.
However, for seeing out, the only visibility restriction is maximum visibility within the forest 2MU (Page 132. "Terrain blocks line of sight beyond the visibility distances specified above"). Troops in the open can be seen at any distance unless there is blocking terrain (P131 Open ... Full visibility). 2.01 MU of forest is blocking terrain, but 1.99 MU isn't, so the MF Bows in the open in the diagram are visible to some of the LF.
Try to think about the position and visibility of the target unit, not how far the viewing unit can see.
That is sufficient, and in my view not at all ambiguous. I don't see that there is a problem, as long as you don't try to read more into the words than are there. They are very carefully phrased and correct according to all the logic of physically sighting troops.
They are not visible at '1.9 MU of forest + unlimited extra distance from outside". that would contradict the rules.
However, for seeing out, the only visibility restriction is maximum visibility within the forest 2MU (Page 132. "Terrain blocks line of sight beyond the visibility distances specified above"). Troops in the open can be seen at any distance unless there is blocking terrain (P131 Open ... Full visibility). 2.01 MU of forest is blocking terrain, but 1.99 MU isn't, so the MF Bows in the open in the diagram are visible to some of the LF.
Try to think about the position and visibility of the target unit, not how far the viewing unit can see.
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Seldon
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but the forest is easy since it is the same for all troop types."However, for seeing out, the only visibility restriction is maximum visibility within the forest 2MU (Page 132. "Terrain blocks line of sight beyond the visibility distances specified above"). Troops in the open can be seen at any distance unless there is blocking terrain (P131 Open ... Full visibility). 2.01 MU of forest is blocking terrain, but 1.99 MU isn't, so the MF Bows in the open in the diagram are visible to some of the LF. "
what about terrain that is different for different troops types?
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rbodleyscott
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Here is the answer from the team:
The visibility distances specified for plantations, forests and villages apply equally to
- troops outside looking in at troops wholly inside
- troops wholly inside looking out
- troops whole inside looking at other troops wholly inside.
When shooting, the total distance from the nearest front corner or part of the front edge of each shooting file to the target must be within the specified distance.
(It doesn't matter how much of the distance is in the terrain).
LF in brush, enclosed fields, vineyards and marsh can see out normally. Troops inside a gully can see out normally.
The visibility distances specified for plantations, forests and villages apply equally to
- troops outside looking in at troops wholly inside
- troops wholly inside looking out
- troops whole inside looking at other troops wholly inside.
When shooting, the total distance from the nearest front corner or part of the front edge of each shooting file to the target must be within the specified distance.
(It doesn't matter how much of the distance is in the terrain).
LF in brush, enclosed fields, vineyards and marsh can see out normally. Troops inside a gully can see out normally.