Heavy Artillery - pivoting

[njb2729]

Hi,

I have read through the rules and note that Heavy Artillery cannot "move".

However, can it pivot on the spot.

I could possibly understand this for Bombards but it seems very strange for Roman bolt shooters.

If they cannot move do they turn to face if attacked in the flank/rear or do they not fight?

Thanks

Nick

[WhiteKnight]

Whenever this has come up in one way or another, the answer has been NO, heavy artillery never moves in any way (except to be removed!!!). They can't turn to face attack either; otherwise, if they won, they'd end up being able to have moved! There are also restrictions on where they can be placed to start with. Hence, they are often not worth the point cost, though behind field defences protecting baggage...?

Martin

[rogerg]

I have used heavy artillery a few times. In each case I have bought field fortifications. Not only does this get protection for the artillery, but it gets them deployed a further 5MU forward in the centre. The effect is to create a corridor in which the enemy are reluctant to commit troops. The points cost is debatable, which probably means it is about right. As usual, it is how they are used that determines the value.

[njb2729]

So does that mean that if hit in the flank/rear, the Artillery cannot turn, and therfore does not get any combat dice?

[hazelbark]

So does that mean that if hit in the flank/rear, the Artillery cannot turn, and therfore does not get any combat dice?

You still get combat dice. I am practically certain. I don't ahve rules with me.

[SirGarnet]

Rather than quoting the whole thing, check the right column p91 which says all bases in contact with your chargers are eligible to fight in impact, though if you get to melee phase then the artillery can only fight to their front if they are ineligible to turn.

[Grandviceroy2018]

while i cannot find any reference in the rules to how far heavy artillery can move, neither can i find a reference to show that it CAN NOT move, let alone anything that says it can not pivot.

while i can easilly accept that heavy artillery could not move around once deployed, it should be able to pivot in place (otherwise attackers could easily slide out of its limited corridor of fire, with the crews unable to aim left or right)

again, please show me where it says in the rules that they cannot pivot.


--and a thank you to the guy who found the line about deploying arty forward by building field fortifications for them....an easily missed line....

[SirGarnet]

while i cannot find any reference in the rules to how far heavy artillery can move, neither can i find a reference to show that it CAN NOT move, let alone anything that says it can not pivot.

again, please show me where it says in the rules that they cannot pivot.

Description of Heavy Artillery p128.

[Grandviceroy2018]

all it says on 128 is "immovable once set up. Treated as foot."

foot can wheel and pivot and turn 90 and 180....

again, NOTHING in the rules (at least not that i can find) says arty can't pivot. Immovable does not mean it can't turn in place

I'm not trying to be a hard case here: i run games for two clubs and am trying to learn and teach the rules for my guys. If I tell someone that they can't do something that seems logical, I need to show them in the rules where it says that -- and if I can't show them......

(ps: most of the guys I play with are good solid gentlemen gamers; damn few rules lawyers among them, but we still like to play by the rules)

so again i ask: where does it say that heavy artillery cannot turn or pivot?

[Jason_Langlois]

Immovable means "incapable of being moved; fixed; stationary." That suggests to me that it can't be moved. I mean, that's what the word means - in particular the part about 'fixed' and 'stationary'.

[Grandviceroy2018]

not to belabour the point, but i would like someone from the design team/rules writers team to SHOW me where it says they can not pivot.

also, note the "treat as infantry" second sentence; this opens up even more questions.....

[SirGarnet]

Immovable does not mean it can't turn in place

As defined in undeconstructed English, immovable means it can't move -- neither hop nor spin nor dance nor sneer with gaze of cold command.

Other discussions about using heavy artillery make it evident this is how it is played, but nothing prevents house rules allowing bombards and trebuchets on turrets.

P.S. I don't recall anything saying camps can't move or pivot - though people do play it that way - a fortified camp zipping around could be quite useful.

[Grandviceroy2018]

you can be snippy all you want. i have had 15 board games published, and two more coming out this summer and contracts for two more. i do not write perfect rules -- far from it; i depend upon the kindness of editors and proof readers.

i am not the first person to ask the question can artillery pivot. i did not start this thread. i have been playing this game for about two months, learning it, teaching it, working through the often confusing statements (my kingdom for a comma, my throne for a semicolon) and deciphering the double negatives....

I had a simple question. it is one that my club pals have asked me. where in the rules does it say that artillery cannot pivot. i get a response about the definitiion of immovable.

I am not arguing whether artilery can or can not or should or should not pivot -- that is the designer's perogative. but from the point of view of someone trying to teach and run a game, and answer questions that come up in the course of play, if artillery can not pivot, then the rules should say that. perhaps it is something for the next edition of the rulebook...

[lawrenceg]

you can be snippy all you want. i have had 15 board games published, and two more coming out this summer and contracts for two more. i do not write perfect rules -- far from it; i depend upon the kindness of editors and proof readers.

i am not the first person to ask the question can artillery pivot. i did not start this thread. i have been playing this game for about two months, learning it, teaching it, working through the often confusing statements (my kingdom for a comma, my throne for a semicolon) and deciphering the double negatives....

I had a simple question. it is one that my club pals have asked me. where in the rules does it say that artillery cannot pivot. i get a response about the definitiion of immovable.

I am not arguing whether artilery can or can not or should or should not pivot -- that is the designer's perogative. but from the point of view of someone trying to teach and run a game, and answer questions that come up in the course of play, if artillery can not pivot, then the rules should say that. perhaps it is something for the next edition of the rulebook...

The rules were quoted saying that they are "immovable". Immovable means they can't move. To pivot is to make a rotational movement. Therefore this means they can't pivot. Hence, this is the part of the rules that says they can't pivot.

Still, if many people think that a rotational move is not a move then perhaps it deserves mention in the FAQs.
Some clarification of how they fight when flank or rear charged would also be of benefit.

[carlos]

you can be snippy all you want. i have had 15 board games published, and two more coming out this summer and contracts for two more. i do not write perfect rules -- far from it; i depend upon the kindness of editors and proof readers.

What an amazing display of geek power! I bow to you!

You can find answers from the rules writers to that exact question in these topics (search is your friend):
viewtopic.php?t=6728
viewtopic.php?t=5464
viewtopic.php?t=4713

And by the way, suggesting an immobile troop can pivot reeks of cheese...

[Grandviceroy2018]

no, it does not reek of cheese.
my guys ASKED me the question. i was just running the game, not even playing in it! i could not find an answer in the rules. in other games, even immobile units can pivot.

like the guy before me posted, if people are asking, it needs to be answered in the faq. and i was not the first to ask, nor am i likely to be the last....

[WhiteKnight]

Grand Viceroy is right in that the game designers have been asked more than once about this! Unfortunately, for those that asked hoping they could pivot their heavy artillery, the answer has always been NO, and that in these FOG rules, immoveable does mean cannot move in any way bar one, and that's to remove the pieces when they are overrun!

Martin

[durrati]

Really don't see the need for including it in a FAQ. OK, someone asks the question can I pivot? Well, to pivot will the model be physically moved? Well, yes - in that case it is not allowed. Really do not see why this would case confusion.

To claim that you are not moving the model as you pick it up and spin it around seems to be a wilfully obtuse reading of the rules and the English language, or to be clearer it is a complete nonsense, to move a model and at the same time claiming you are not moving it.......... Someone said this would be cheese, I feel that this is a very polite term for such an action. Immovable quite clearly does mean you can not pivot and therefore it is that part of the rules that says a pivot is not allowed.

[neilhammond]

I'd vote for a FAQ on this. Its not uncommon in rules for pivot to be treated as not moving. And therefore the assumptions carry across. If a FAQ answers the question and points to the appropriate bit in the rules it's quickly cleared up.

[lawrenceg]

I'd vote for a FAQ on this. Its not uncommon in rules for pivot to be treated as not moving. And therefore the assumptions carry across. If a FAQ answers the question and points to the appropriate bit in the rules it's quickly cleared up.

I think 4 times should be enough to qualify as frequently asked.