Another Alexandrian List; Any Comments?

flameberge · Post by **flameberge** » Tue May 06, 2008 5:15 pm

I've yet to play the game other than trying out solo with the rulebook starter armies and so would like any opinions on my list.

Alexander IC
Troop Commander
Troop Commander
Foot Companions (Pike) X8--HF, Prt, Avg, Dr, Pike
Foot Companions (Pike) X8--HF, Prt, Avg, Dr, Pike
Hypaspists (Pike) X12--HF, Prt, Sup, Dr, Pike
Companion Cavalry X4--Cv, Arm, Avg, Dr, Lance, Swd
Thessalian Heavy Cavalry X4--Cv, Arm, Avg, Dr, Lt. Sp, Swd
Agrianian Javelinman X8--LF, U/pr, Sup, U/dr, Jav Lt.Sp
Cretan Archers X6--LF, U/pr, Sup, U/dr, Bow
Skythian Horse Archers X6--Cv,U/Dr, Avg, U/Pr, Bow, Swd
Thracian Peltasts X8--MF, Prt, Avg, U/Dr,Hvy Weapons
Thracian Peltasts X8--MF, Prt, Avg, U/Dr,Offensive Spear
Greek Hoplites X8--MF, Prt, Avg, Dr, OffSp
Thracian Light Horse X4--LH, U/pr, Avg, U/dr, Jav. Lt.Sp
Prodromoi X4--LH, U/pr, Avg, dr, Lance, Swd
Elephants X2
Elephants X2

A few specific questions about the list, are three BGs of MF too much? Should I make the greek hoplites HF? I was thinking of using the Prodromoi to hunt down skirmishers but wonder if the points (32) would be better spent elsewhere? I also made the skythian horse archers Cv instead of LH because I wanted the better bowfire and figured they could skirmish if they went in a single line but wondered if maybe I should make them LH? Lastly I wondered if I might need to do away with something and make the Pike BGs bigger or add another pike BG.

davem · Post by **davem** » Tue May 06, 2008 5:37 pm

How many points is that? It looks pretty big for 800 pts.
FWIW I think the Hoplites as MF are OK, the HF ones are only protected and will be a weak point in your line IMHO. I also tried the Thracians as Hvy Wpn, but dropped it and went back to Off Sp. I never found a target where HW was useful and they were too vulnerable to Mtd without the Sp.

Regards

Dave M

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Tue May 06, 2008 5:40 pm

There is a limit of no more than 6 Greek mercenary/Allied Traditional Hoplites after 328 BC which using the Scythians requires. I'm not sure if this applies to MF Ipkikratian Hoplites (your MF) or not but would not allow you to upgrade them to HF.

I just posted my idea for alist to the previous Alexandrian Macedonian list thread if you're interested. My pike are 1x8 for Hypaspists, 3x8 for the foot companions.

flameberge · Post by **flameberge** » Wed May 07, 2008 4:20 am

davem wrote:How many points is that? It looks pretty big for 800 pts.
FWIW I think the Hoplites as MF are OK, the HF ones are only protected and will be a weak point in your line IMHO. I also tried the Thracians as Hvy Wpn, but dropped it and went back to Off Sp. I never found a target where HW was useful and they were too vulnerable to Mtd without the Sp.

Regards

Dave M

Hmm, I used the excel spreadsheet I found on the Forum but something must have gone wrong because I went ahead and double checked the points manually and am WAY over the 800 points. This list is 950! I'll have to completely rework it. I'm suprised the heavy weapons didn't work out. I figured the Hvy Weapons would give them a slight edge over other medium foot like offensive spear since they don't have to worry about disorder for their POA and the heavy weapons would allow them to put up a good fight against heavier infantry with good armour since it cancels the armor POA. Also if they are in uneven or worse terrain, which is why I want MF, Cavalry would be disordered and so I would think the MF would be able to hold their own, but Like I said I don't have any experience testing my theory and so might be completely wrong. Giving them offensive spear I guess might make them more flexible since you could put them in the open and not have to worry about getting slaughtered by cav.

flameberge · Post by **flameberge** » Wed May 07, 2008 4:44 am

OK how about this. I downgrade the Thessalian cav to average, downgrade the javelinman to average thracians, drop the skythians, subtact 2 bases of hoplites, and axe the thracian heavy weapons giving me:

Alexander IC
Troop Commander
Troop Commander
Foot Companions (Pike) X8--HF, Prt, Avg, Dr, Pike
Foot Companions (Pike) X8--HF, Prt, Avg, Dr, Pike
Hypaspists (Pike) X12--HF, Prt, Sup, Dr, Pike
Companion Cavalry X4--Cv, Arm, Avg, Dr, Lance, Swd
Thessalian Heavy Cavalry X4--Cv, Arm, Avg, Dr, Lt. Sp, Swd
Thracian Javelinman X8--LF, U/pr, Avg, U/dr, Jav Lt.Sp
Cretan Archers X6--LF, U/pr, Sup, U/dr, Bow
Thracian Peltasts X8--MF, Prt, Avg, U/Dr,Offensive Spear
Greek Hoplites X6--MF, Prt, Avg, Dr, OffSp
Thracian Light Horse X4--LH, U/pr, Avg, U/dr, Jav. Lt.Sp
Prodromoi X4--LH, U/pr, Avg, dr, Lance, Swd
Elephants X2
Elephants X2

For a total of 794 points.

rich0101 · Post by **rich0101** » Thu May 15, 2008 3:34 pm

I have to disagree I like heavy weapons, because they always get there POA unless fighting Ssw. I agree they do suck against cavalry, but you shouldn't be fighting cavalry with them anyway. The only things I think I would do to your list is make the Hypaspists 8 strong and add another BG of 8 strong foot companions. Which means you will probably have to drop some of your MF units to 6 strong. My list looks a little different from yours but I think yours could work. It is all according to your style of play.

flameberge · Post by **flameberge** » Thu May 15, 2008 5:43 pm

rich0101 wrote:I have to disagree I like heavy weapons, because they always get there POA unless fighting Ssw. I agree they do suck against cavalry, but you shouldn't be fighting cavalry with them anyway. The only things I think I would do to your list is make the Hypaspists 8 strong and add another BG of 8 strong foot companions. Which means you will probably have to drop some of your MF units to 6 strong. My list looks a little different from yours but I think yours could work. It is all according to your style of play.

So would you swap out the Off/Spear MF with Hvy Weapon MF?

recharge · Post by **recharge** » Fri May 16, 2008 5:43 pm

Having run afoul of Alex and his pointy stick boys last night

Not to mention those elephants.

What is Alexander's downfall? What unit type(s) give the pike a hard time?

John

Luddite · Post by **Luddite** » Fri May 16, 2008 6:07 pm

recharge wrote:Having run afoul of Alex and his pointy stick boys last night Not to mention those elephants.

What is Alexander's downfall? What unit type(s) give the pike a hard time?

John

Skirmishing LH pretty much neutralise pikes. The phalanx will never catch them, so the LH can delay/distract with impunity. they'll never kill the pike of course but that doesn't matter...the LH take them out of the fight while your streangth kills everything else in the Alex army...

ScottS · Post by **ScottS** » Fri May 16, 2008 6:37 pm

recharge wrote:What is Alexander's downfall?

Dying at 33?

recharge · Post by **recharge** » Sat May 17, 2008 7:16 pm

Must have been the boyfriend

I must be missing simething? How does light horse disrupt the pike, baring some large groups doing some very good shooting? Foot does not have to charge mounted - correct? So the pike just ignore them and keep moving forward till they squash something.

what am I missing? Thanks.
John

Luddite · Post by **Luddite** » Sat May 17, 2008 7:37 pm

recharge wrote:Must have been the boyfriend

I must be missing simething? How does light horse disrupt the pike, baring some large groups doing some very good shooting? Foot does not have to charge mounted - correct? So the pike just ignore them and keep moving forward till they squash something.

what am I missing? Thanks.
John

The LH will slow the pike to 1 move a turn giving you time to win elsewhere.

The pike are shock and will have to charge the LH if within charge range and failing a CMT test, so by careful positioning you can draw the pike out of formation and get them 'chasing balloons'....meanwhile, the rest of your army wind the battle by taking on the lesser Alexandrian troops..

Also, enough Lh concentrating fire will eventually destroy even a 12-pike BG by shooting, simply from lost bases!

willb · Post by **willb** » Sun May 18, 2008 3:43 am

page 58 - foot shock only have to take a cmt to not charge other foot. also the fourth bullet states "if they are foot whose move could contact or be intercepted by mounted" after the second paragraph where it states "shock will not charge without orders (and are therefore not required to take a cmt to prevent charging)in the following circumstances

Montagu · Post by **Montagu** » Mon May 19, 2008 3:09 am

recharge wrote:Having run afoul of Alex and his pointy stick boys last night Not to mention those elephants.

What is Alexander's downfall? What unit type(s) give the pike a hard time?

John

I don't know your list but here are some ways to negate/reduce/mitigate the pike's advantage:
1) Armored or Hvy armored units get + POA in melee (all the pike units I have seen are protected)
2) Offensive Spear + POA isn't negated by pikes
3) Flank them if that is an option
4) Aggressively attack the units flanking the pike ASAP to open the flanking lanes
5) Concentrate shooting on them to lower their cohesion before melee combat
6) Big units can many times overlap the pike getting more dice to roll which might gain more hits in combat
7) Put a commander in the fight to your chances of winning the contest
8 ) Place a sacrificial unit in the pike's path and put 1-2 units ready to charge the pikes in the flanks when they pursue the broken unit
9) Ignore them
10) Use skirmisher or cav in single line to bait them into a position to flank them or pull them into rough/difficult terrain

recharge · Post by **recharge** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:00 pm

Well, I was using a Condotta list, not necessarily a good one- experimenting. The flanking units were elephants

I only had 2 units of LF crossbow to shoot with. All in all a bad match up.

On the up side:
Yesterday, I took a different list against Hannibal and slaughtered them. Used a flank march with 3 BG of Kn, but they never got into the fight. My pike block killed 3 Cartho units.
I would see the flank march as a good move against Alexander, although it is risky (at least the way I roll).

John

andy63 · Post by **andy63** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:37 pm

batesmotel wrote:There is a limit of no more than 6 Greek mercenary/Allied Traditional Hoplites after 328 BC which using the Scythians requires. I'm not sure if this applies to MF Ipkikratian Hoplites (your MF) or not but would not allow you to upgrade them to HF.

I just posted my idea for alist to the previous Alexandrian Macedonian list thread if you're interested. My pike are 1x8 for Hypaspists, 3x8 for the foot companions.

I believe it for the Greek mercenary/Allied Hoplites not the Ipkikratian Hoplites.

Andy.

andy63 · Post by **andy63** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:40 pm

flameberge wrote:
rich0101 wrote:I have to disagree I like heavy weapons, because they always get there POA unless fighting Ssw. I agree they do suck against cavalry, but you shouldn't be fighting cavalry with them anyway. The only things I think I would do to your list is make the Hypaspists 8 strong and add another BG of 8 strong foot companions. Which means you will probably have to drop some of your MF units to 6 strong. My list looks a little different from yours but I think yours could work. It is all according to your style of play.
So would you swap out the Off/Spear MF with Hvy Weapon MF?

With the Thracians everytime.
Andy.

andy63 · Post by **andy63** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:55 pm

flameberge wrote:OK how about this. I downgrade the Thessalian cav to average, downgrade the javelinman to average thracians, drop the skythians, subtact 2 bases of hoplites, and axe the thracian heavy weapons giving me:

Alexander IC
Troop Commander
Troop Commander
Foot Companions (Pike) X8--HF, Prt, Avg, Dr, Pike
Foot Companions (Pike) X8--HF, Prt, Avg, Dr, Pike
Hypaspists (Pike) X12--HF, Prt, Sup, Dr, Pike
Companion Cavalry X4--Cv, Arm, Avg, Dr, Lance, Swd
Thessalian Heavy Cavalry X4--Cv, Arm, Avg, Dr, Lt. Sp, Swd
Thracian Javelinman X8--LF, U/pr, Avg, U/dr, Jav Lt.Sp
Cretan Archers X6--LF, U/pr, Sup, U/dr, Bow
Thracian Peltasts X8--MF, Prt, Avg, U/Dr,Offensive Spear
Greek Hoplites X6--MF, Prt, Avg, Dr, OffSp
Thracian Light Horse X4--LH, U/pr, Avg, U/dr, Jav. Lt.Sp
Prodromoi X4--LH, U/pr, Avg, dr, Lance, Swd
Elephants X2
Elephants X2

For a total of 794 points.

Hi flameberge me personally i would drop 1 BG of Elephants and Instead have one more 8 BG pike,also upgrade your Thessalian Cav back up to Superior( In my opinion a must)this puts you 8pts over i would just drop 2 Thracian Javelinmen to 6 man BG.This i think puts your army to 800pts.My thinking of this is the pike instead of the Elephants is a far better solid army.
Andy.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Mon May 19, 2008 6:19 pm

I've found that a single BG of nellies in an army doesn't work that well - but that may be my ineptitude - so if you were dropping 1 I'd drop both.

flameberge · Post by **flameberge** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:54 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:I've found that a single BG of nellies in an army doesn't work that well - but that may be my ineptitude - so if you were dropping 1 I'd drop both.

I don't really like the idea of getting rid of the elephants simply because I like them but if they are not effective I suppose I could do that. I was thinking of putting the elephants in the middle of the pike line so they couldn't be overlapped to reduce their vulnerability. I also thought that the -1 to cohesion tests from the elephants would be useful.