Question about first move with USA

[Cancuino]

Hi all, which move do you think that is better in the first round?:
1.- CCA/9 Arm to Bastogne
2.- CCB/9 Arm to Spa

Most of the people use to move to Bastogne but in that case, Spa is usually lost. What do you think?

[Yojimbo252]

A lot depends on the results of the initial Axis surprise attacks but generally speaking, given the current state of the metagame and in particular the strength of the Axis defensive strategy, I think it's more important to defend Bastogne.

Losing Spa is not nearly as damaging especially if the Allies still control Eupen.

[jarg1]

Hi all, which move do you think that is better in the first round?:
1.- CCA/9 Arm to Bastogne
2.- CCB/9 Arm to Spa

Most of the people use to move to Bastogne but in that case, Spa is usually lost. What do you think?

I prefer the move to Spa. IMO it makes the German choices much harder on the second turn. Also, Bastogne can be contested without the extra armor.

[AikiPhil]

I was actually thinking of starting a similar thread a while back, complete with maps and everything. I thought it would be fun to run through all the possible starting moves and the various pros and cons. I've just not had time to do it with work being so busy.

I think there are a whole lot more valid possible moves depending on what happens in the surprise attacks. Two moves I use fairly often:

1. CCB to St.Vith. This is always my first move if 14 Cav survives and retreats to Malmedy. 3 pips in St. Vith means you get both terrain effects making it quite tricky to dislodge. This gums up the road network for Axis quite effectively. It's a more marginal move if it's only CCB since it's much easier to dislodge.

2. CCB to Eupen. I've experimented with this a number of times. It leaves you a little vulnerable to a lunge straight up the middle, but I value securing Eupen as very important. You can still reach Liege in one move from Eupen if you need to retreat. By securing Eupen it makes it much easier to extract whatever remains of 2 Inf and 99 Inf

I used to move CCA to Bastogne as my first move all the time. I now almost never do this. I always prefer to move CCB first. If you leave CCB where it is it's just free target practice for 1st SS Pz. Axis then basically gets to make the standard first move for 1st SS Pz with the bonus of killing one of your valuable CC units. I believe the CC units are really important to keep alive if at all possible because even with only 1 pip left, when combined with elite infantry a little later on they can prove to be mighty resilient.

I'd love to hear if anyone has any other moves they use

Phil

[jarg1]

I was actually thinking of starting a similar thread a while back, complete with maps and everything. I thought it would be fun to run through all the possible starting moves and the various pros and cons. I've just not had time to do it with work being so busy.

I think there are a whole lot more valid possible moves depending on what happens in the surprise attacks. Two moves I use fairly often:

1. CCB to St.Vith. This is always my first move if 14 Cav survives and retreats to Malmedy. 3 pips in St. Vith means you get both terrain effects making it quite tricky to dislodge. This gums up the road network for Axis quite effectively. It's a more marginal move if it's only CCB since it's much easier to dislodge.

2. CCB to Eupen. I've experimented with this a number of times. It leaves you a little vulnerable to a lunge straight up the middle, but I value securing Eupen as very important. You can still reach Liege in one move from Eupen if you need to retreat. By securing Eupen it makes it much easier to extract whatever remains of 2 Inf and 99 Inf

I used to move CCA to Bastogne as my first move all the time. I now almost never do this. I always prefer to move CCB first. If you leave CCB where it is it's just free target practice for 1st SS Pz. Axis then basically gets to make the standard first move for 1st SS Pz with the bonus of killing one of your valuable CC units. I believe the CC units are really important to keep alive if at all possible because even with only 1 pip left, when combined with elite infantry a little later on they can prove to be mighty resilient.

I'd love to hear if anyone has any other moves they use

Phil

Regarding point 1, in the past I have always made this move if the opportunity presented itself. However lately I've started wondering if this is the best thing to do, because when this has happened to me when playing as the Germans, to the best of my recollection I have always won. The problem is that you are essentially writing off these units and weakening your northern defenses significantly. It does greatly reduce the odds of an early German win since they can't push armor forward as quickly, but it also increases the chance that you will lose enough VP locations, plus the additional guaranteed unit loss VPs, for the German to successfully turtle. That said, I have won as the Allies after doing this and one opponent attributed the win to the move to St. Vith. Incidentally, I've even been able to get 4 points into St. Vith in one game when the 112th was also retreated to St. Vith, but that didn't end up going very well when the German attacked, had good rolls, and killed or retreated the defenders, though that obviously was an unlikely result. Ultimately I think the most useful aspect of the move to St. Vith is psychological, and that is only going to be the case if your opponent is inexperienced.

Regarding point 2, I've tried this but I still think a move to Spa is better because there is a chance that the German may not be able to take Eupen anyway, or at least will have to forego another equally useful move to do so.

I agree that barring the 14th surviving and not retreating, the CCB should always be the first Allied move.

[s_nkarp]

It's fun to think about different play styles. I almost always move CCA up to Bastogne, lest it be trapped in the south.

One of the things I like about Luck of the Draw is that it always makes me take a fresh look. And sometimes I learn something useful for the historical game.

[AikiPhil]

Regarding point 1, in the past I have always made this move if the opportunity presented itself. However lately I've started wondering if this is the best thing to do, because when this has happened to me when playing as the Germans, to the best of my recollection I have always won. The problem is that you are essentially writing off these units and weakening your northern defenses significantly. It does greatly reduce the odds of an early German win since they can't push armor forward as quickly, but it also increases the chance that you will lose enough VP locations, plus the additional guaranteed unit loss VPs, for the German to successfully turtle. That said, I have won as the Allies after doing this and one opponent attributed the win to the move to St. Vith. Incidentally, I've even been able to get 4 points into St. Vith in one game when the 112th was also retreated to St. Vith, but that didn't end up going very well when the German attacked, had good rolls, and killed or retreated the defenders, though that obviously was an unlikely result. Ultimately I think the most useful aspect of the move to St. Vith is psychological, and that is only going to be the case if your opponent is inexperienced.

Regarding point 2, I've tried this but I still think a move to Spa is better because there is a chance that the German may not be able to take Eupen anyway, or at least will have to forego another equally useful move to do so.

I agree that barring the 14th surviving and not retreating, the CCB should always be the first Allied move.

You're right, it's hard to know sometimes. A strategy is only good if it works and it can look bad if the dice go against you or someone comes up with an effective counter. Or vice versa. I like the St. Vith move because it clogs up the road network so effectively but you're correct that the trade off is losing the units involved. There's a reasonable chance though that you'll take a pip or two from the panzers as well though as they have to attack one at a time meaning the units get to make more effective attacks than they would otherwise if they were pummelled by a panzer stack. It also effectively uses up axis moves that they would prefer to use elsewhere, and if it's a short first day this can prove very damaging. With allied strategies it's really hard to know since you end up losing most games with allies anyway (vs. an experienced player).

I think the point that axis may turtle is ever present anyway. As you say if the allied defence is too effective then it just hastens this decision. Saying that, in virtually all tournament and league games I've played nobody has turtled against me. Everyone seems to play within the spirit of the game, but when I play random matches axis players often turtle. I generally play ignoring the possibility of turtling, since if it happens it happens and I'd rather push axis into a longer game than lose early with a Meuse crossing.

With point 2, yes I haven't used this in quite some time. Interestingly I never move to Spa first. I don't know why but I've never found it that interesting.

Anyone have any other interesting moves they use? I've seen CCB to Trois Points a few times and I've used it a few times myself. But I'm not convinced about it as a move since if 1st SS attacks on the 17th and causes a retreat then you can end up with a 1 pip CCB in Werbomont just waiting for an armour breakthrough.

Phil

[jarg1]

Regarding point 1, in the past I have always made this move if the opportunity presented itself. However lately I've started wondering if this is the best thing to do, because when this has happened to me when playing as the Germans, to the best of my recollection I have always won. The problem is that you are essentially writing off these units and weakening your northern defenses significantly. It does greatly reduce the odds of an early German win since they can't push armor forward as quickly, but it also increases the chance that you will lose enough VP locations, plus the additional guaranteed unit loss VPs, for the German to successfully turtle. That said, I have won as the Allies after doing this and one opponent attributed the win to the move to St. Vith. Incidentally, I've even been able to get 4 points into St. Vith in one game when the 112th was also retreated to St. Vith, but that didn't end up going very well when the German attacked, had good rolls, and killed or retreated the defenders, though that obviously was an unlikely result. Ultimately I think the most useful aspect of the move to St. Vith is psychological, and that is only going to be the case if your opponent is inexperienced.

Regarding point 2, I've tried this but I still think a move to Spa is better because there is a chance that the German may not be able to take Eupen anyway, or at least will have to forego another equally useful move to do so.

I agree that barring the 14th surviving and not retreating, the CCB should always be the first Allied move.

You're right, it's hard to know sometimes. A strategy is only good if it works and it can look bad if the dice go against you or someone comes up with an effective counter. Or vice versa. I like the St. Vith move because it clogs up the road network so effectively but you're correct that the trade off is losing the units involved. There's a reasonable chance though that you'll take a pip or two from the panzers as well though as they have to attack one at a time meaning the units get to make more effective attacks than they would otherwise if they were pummelled by a panzer stack. It also effectively uses up axis moves that they would prefer to use elsewhere, and if it's a short first day this can prove very damaging. With allied strategies it's really hard to know since you end up losing most games with allies anyway (vs. an experienced player).

I think the point that axis may turtle is ever present anyway. As you say if the allied defence is too effective then it just hastens this decision. Saying that, in virtually all tournament and league games I've played nobody has turtled against me. Everyone seems to play within the spirit of the game, but when I play random matches axis players often turtle. I generally play ignoring the possibility of turtling, since if it happens it happens and I'd rather push axis into a longer game than lose early with a Meuse crossing.

With point 2, yes I haven't used this in quite some time. Interestingly I never move to Spa first. I don't know why but I've never found it that interesting.

Anyone have any other interesting moves they use? I've seen CCB to Trois Points a few times and I've used it a few times myself. But I'm not convinced about it as a move since if 1st SS attacks on the 17th and causes a retreat then you can end up with a 1 pip CCB in Werbomont just waiting for an armour breakthrough.

Phil

When I play as the Germans and the Allies contest St. Vith, I typically try to bypass it and kill the unsupplied units later. And as the Allies I'd rather counterattack a Turtle that has 3 VP of locations than one that has 6, which can happen if you leave the north with too few defenders.

As the Allies I avoid contesting Trois Ponts with weak units since an elimination there can potentially result in 3 German armored units exploiting, which actually puts the German in a better position than if it is left uncontested.

The only other move I could see as having any potential is to Houffalize if you think you could get CCR in there also.

[AikiPhil]

When I play as the Germans and the Allies contest St. Vith, I typically try to bypass it and kill the unsupplied units later. And as the Allies I'd rather counterattack a Turtle that has 3 VP of locations than one that has 6, which can happen if you leave the north with too few defenders

.

Interesting. I've tried this only once but ignoring them for two turns created such a traffic jam that it just slowed everything down far too much. Not to mention the lost VP for holding St. Vith. I then found I was way behind schedule. Perhaps counter-intuitively, I usually switch to a Southern strategy if they move to St. Vith and pile 1st SS Pz into St. Vith. This is usually enough to dislodge things in one move rather than the potential two if you use the weaker Panzers. Then I pile everything through Bastogne and charge for Marche with an armour breakthrough on the 17th. This is usually a very effective strategy that has only failed badly for me once against Bruce S in the semi-final of the tournament where he was able to clog Bastogne after I'd taken it thus preventing the reinforcements coming through (this did happen with some truly awful dice though which any plan can fall foul of).

Regarding the point about too few defenders, I understand where you're coming from. But I always feel like you don't actually need that many defenders in the north to defend very effectively. Plus almost all the reinforcements in the early game come in the north. Maybe it's just me but I prefer to encourage axis to attack the north than the south because Verviers is actually really hard to hold once the weather clears. There's also nowhere to retreat to. Bastogne on the other hand is a nightmare to take back. Especially if axis delay the Arlon reinforcements and perform a rolling retreat from extended positions in the south, thus limiting the usefulness of the allied infantry.

As the Allies I avoid contesting Trois Ponts with weak units since an elimination there can potentially result in 3 German armored units exploiting, which actually puts the German in a better position than if it is left uncontested.

Agreed. This is the same problem I was highlighting if the CCR retreats to Werbomont. Anything that gives an armour breakthrough across a river is a bad situation for the allies as it negates their best shots.

I'm enjoying the discussion!

[Weids]

Some people say that if The American puts CCB at Vith, then it reduces the odds of an axis early victory. However, since 12ss can be diverted to losheim, so it is able to reach webomont on 17th, thus can reach Menues on the 18th. They also claimes that the Axis have no advantage over the fact that Eupen is not defended by the Americans. In fact, whether the axis is able to control Eupen in the future or not, as long as Mamady have not been activated, axis poses threat to Verviers which hinder the Americans, and thus holds advantages. In my opinion, moving CCB to Eupen is the only move that can neutralize that advantage of axis. In addition, this move also gives the American a threat of securing the north that renders axis to choose unwillingly between Bastogne and Trosponds. Therefore, to put it in a casual way, this move has value as worthy as holding Bastogne which other moves like Vith and SPA do not have.

I have also heard of the opinion that the American always loses vs. an experienced. I must point out that no players is perfectly experienced. You can always find a way to shock them no matter how experienced they are when they only uses their experiences but not their rational side of the brain. They were surprised at one time and learned from the surprise, but only to find themselves being surprised once more when their earlier memories began to fade away. It troubles people over and over again, because there are simply too many possibilities to remember.

[s_nkarp]

Some people say that if The American puts CCB at Vith, then it reduces the odds of an axis early victory. However, since 12ss can be diverted to losheim, so it is able to reach webomont on 17th, thus can reach Menues on the 18th. They also claimes that the Axis have no advantage over the fact that Eupen is not defended by the Americans. In fact, whether the axis is able to control Eupen in the future or not, as long as Mamady have not been activated, axis poses threat to Verviers which hinder the Americans, and thus holds advantages. In my opinion, moving CCB to Eupen is the only move that can neutralize that advantage of axis. In addition, this move also gives the American a threat of securing the north that renders axis to choose unwillingly between Bastogne and Trosponds. Therefore, to put it in a casual way, this move has value as worthy as holding Bastogne which other moves like Vith and SPA do not have.

I usually find funneling the Axis down the center the best way of preserving Allied forces and letting the Allies recover their balance fastest -- but a lot depends on early casualties and combat results.

I'm really happy with how the random setup scenario turned out as well, forcing rethinking of early choices.

[Weids]

In addition, this move also gives the American a threat of securing the north that renders axis to choose unwillingly between Bastogne and Trosponds. Therefore, to put it in a casual way, this move has value as worthy as holding Bastogne which other moves like Vith and SPA do not have.

I mean securing both Trois Ponds and Houfallize. Secure the entire Center to maximize the effect when necessary.