_[FDB] rev978 [Graphics] is this just me or...

[fogman]

the graphics are not as sharp as the original?

marathon (rb).jpg (161.83 KiB) Viewed 6195 times

marathon (u).jpg (150.22 KiB) Viewed 6195 times

[Brigz]

It's not just you fogman. I noticed it too. The images of the troops is very degraded. I'm using 1680 x 1050 resolution. I hope this is only due to it being a Beta release and that the final result will be with the same graphic detail as the original program. If not, that will be a serious setback for the new FoG.

I don't like to complain because Dan is doing a magnificent job but if the graphics, especially the BG figures, are to be less detailed and degraded, that would be a big disappointment.

Dave

[hidde]

The second time I started the game my choice of graphics quality(fantastic ) hadn't stuck so I had to do it again. It has remained after that, though.
Maybe that's what happened?

[fogman]

it is at 'fantastic' setting although 'fantastic' doesn't look different from 'normal' for me... and i don't even know why there needs to be different settings, this is not exactly state of the art. my 4 year old laptop (old but top of the line, business class vaio) runs pike and shot perfectly well with no graphic degradation.

[Praeter]

I have noticed that there seems to be a difference in quality of graphics between the new FOG and the old one - this seems especially noticeable when playing a Swords and Scimitars battle - I think the unit graphics from that army pack are a bit better than the others. I played Arsouf in both FOG(U) and FOG 1.8 and the 1.8 graphics are a lot better. I tried an ancient battle - Cannae and it did seem that the FoG(U) graphics were a bit blockier than the 1.8 version.

Has anybody else noticed anything similar?

[Blathergut]

This was mentioned way back when we were beta testing previously. Graphics do seem to be of less quality and sometimes 'squished' and such. I don't remember any explanation.

[cothyso]

the graphics are not as sharp as the original?

it is just you.

FoG(U) vs FoG(RB) 001.jpg (929.3 KiB) Viewed 6140 times

FoG(U) vs FoG(RB) 002.jpg (1.01 MiB) Viewed 6140 times

I also have the no-quality-loss .png originals, if anyone feels like asking for them. And it's quite simple to test it for yourselves: just open the old FoG(RB) and then the FoG(U) windowed client over it.

Most probably the difference you "see" was caused by a possible optical effect caused by the FoG(RB)'s much broader hex-grid edges than FoG(U)'s rather light ones.

If anything, comparing FoG(U) v2.0.01.978 vs FoG(RB) 1.8.1:
- the general FoG(U) colors are a very little tiny bit darker than FoG(RB) (due to lighting settings)
- the FoG(U) unit images are actually sharper than FoG(RB) unit images, as FoG(U)'s unit images are set to not use mips-maps and the filtering is set to point
- FoG(RB) displays visual artifacts caused by the positioning of the hex models inside hex map's lattice (observe the white vertical lines appearing all over FoG(RB)'s map)

I expect all of you to look at these screenshots, make your own experiment (windowed FoG(U) over FoG(RB)), and eventually if you still believe you're right, post in here these screenshots proving FoG(RB)'s graphics is better than FoG(U), please.

[Brigz]

Dan is correct. I did my own comparison and there appears to be no difference except that the U images appear to be very slightly darker and this is negligible. So, I stand corrected and agree with Dan.

[fogman]

1) how do you put a windowed FoG (U) on top of a non windowed FoG (Rb)?
2) if there is optical distortion, how do you correct it?

[Brigz]

1) how do you put a windowed FoG (U) on top of a non windowed FoG (Rb)?
2) if there is optical distortion, how do you correct it?

fogman,
I ran the same battle on each program. When FoG (U) was displayed I took a capture of a BG and saved it. Did the same thing when (RB) was displayed. I adjusted the hex grid on both displays to get an equal size resolution clip. I compared both images and was surprised to find them nearly identical, except the (U) image was slightly brighter.

BTW: you may not know it but you can run FoG (RB) in window mode by hitting the " ~ " key located on the far left upper area of the keyboard. It's to the left of the "1" key. this opens a dialog. If you want a window type in "full-screen 0" or "full-screen 1" to switch. This can be done on the Main screen before you begin play.

[fogman]

OK I'll have a try when I get back to my machine. On the other hand, even if the input can be proved to be near identical, the output for many people is still worse. In practical terms I would be still looking at something that looks degraded. Did comparing the freeze ups somehow change the original view for you when you play fog (u)?

[Brigz]

Did comparing the freeze ups somehow change the original view for you when you play fog (u)?

I haven't been playing FoG in a great while, so when I tried the recent (U) beta I noticed that the figures seemed less sharply displayed. In Dan's reply he showed that there wasn't any noticeable difference. Hoping to show him he was wrong I did my own comparison and was very surprised to see that there was indeed little if no difference. My memory of the original game was obviously faulty. It doesn't alter my fondness for the game.

Having said all that, it would still be nice to have sharper images but that would be a lot of work for anyone that took on that task.

[fogman]

What I am concerned about is that even though a side by side comparison may yield no difference, I still get a noticeably fuzzier view of fog (u) on its own and it cannot be just me.

[cothyso]

1) how do you put a windowed FoG (U) on top of a non windowed FoG (Rb)?
2) if there is optical distortion, how do you correct it?

fogman,
I ran the same battle on each program. When FoG (U) was displayed I took a capture of a BG and saved it. Did the same thing when (RB) was displayed. I adjusted the hex grid on both displays to get an equal size resolution clip. I compared both images and was surprised to find them nearly identical, except the (U) image was slightly brighter.

You don't need to do the comparison by taking separate screenshots, and then compare those. What I did was to start FoG(U) in windowed mode, then start FoG(RB) in full screen mode, then Alt-Tab from FoG(RB) to FoG(U). I have an extended desktop screen, which allowed it. If you can't do that on a single screen, then start both in windowed mode, and do the comparison that way. Of course you'll have to disable grid display in both applications, and adjust the zoom of each of them until they are of a comparable size.

[cothyso]

OK I'll have a try when I get back to my machine. On the other hand, even if the input can be proved to be near identical, the output for many people is still worse. In practical terms I would be still looking at something that looks degraded. Did comparing the freeze ups somehow change the original view for you when you play fog (u)?

Seeing both applications running side by side on the same monitor is not the same input, but the same output. I repeat, I did the comparison by running both applications at the same time (and only then took a screenshot to show you the result), not by taking separate screenshots of each, and compare the screenshots. FoG(RB) hexagonal map lattice's faults are more than evident when you're disabling the grid and moving the map around.

And in my book, if the output of tho applications is almost identical on the same display, then there's no graphical difference between them. As I've told you, do your own side by side comparison, and only then come here to continue to support this non-sense by providing a side-by-side comparison screenshot displaying the obvious graphical difference between FoG(RB) and FoG(U), please.

Otherwise, please stop pretending false things just for the sake of it.

[fogman]

And in my book, if the output of tho applications is almost identical on the same display, then there's no graphical difference between them. As I've told you, do your own side by side comparison, and only then come here to continue to support this non-sense by providing a side-by-side comparison screenshot displaying the obvious graphical difference between FoG(RB) and FoG(U), please.

Otherwise, please stop pretending false things just for the sake of it.

are you saying I'm a liar?

[cothyso]

Can you please show me where do I said you are a liar?

What I am saying is that I find your attitude aggressive, so please step back.

Also, you're just saying that FoG(U) graphics is inferior, without backing your claim with anything. I've did the side by side comparison, to see if there is any problem, but I couldn't notice any significant difference, as you're saying. And I've not only said that FoG(U) graphics was not downgraded and is in no way inferior to FoG(RB) graphics, but I've also presented screenshots of both applications running at the same time on the same display to prove my statement.

So, please, provide a screenshot with both applications running at the same time on the same monitor, to let us see what you see. There can be a lot of other explanations for it, but we can not figure out anything just from your words alone.

[TheGrayMouser]

Can you please show me where do I said you are a liar?

What I am saying is that I find your attitude aggressive, so please step back.

Also, you're just saying that FoG(U) graphics is inferior, without backing your claim with anything. I've did the side by side comparison, to see if there is any problem, but I couldn't notice any significant difference, as you're saying. And I've not only said that FoG(U) graphics was not downgraded and is in no way inferior to FoG(RB) graphics, but I've also presented screenshots of both applications running at the same time on the same display to prove my statement.

So, please, provide a screenshot with both applications running at the same time on the same monitor, to let us see what you see. There can be a lot of other explanations for it, but we can not figure out anything just from your words alone.

Dan, aesthetic usually has a whole lot of subjective imbedded in it. Fogman subjectively feels the graphics are not as "good" now as before. Nor do I . Just because the technical reasons it should be identical isn't enough if you can see/feel the differences. Subjectively, FOG VB Unit graphics were easier on the eye FOR ME, the user. Im sure their is a technical reason but who care, different code, you cant expect all things to turn out perfectly "the same". They still look good.

anyways, Im not posting side by sides as Im not going to in th efurure be playing side by side
these shots are maximum zoom in for both engines (unjits quality set to fantastic)

Now is this a big deal? no not really, unity is more pixelated at extreme zoom in, perhaps antialising is the term? My guess Unity allows for much greater range of zoom in an out and at the higher lower ends you aren't going to get the same fidelity as FOGVB thruout the ranges.

[cothyso]

Yes, the unit images pixelation when very close to the camera cause is the antialiasing set on point. And yes, FoG(U) zoom-in allows a closer look than FoG(RB).

I chose this trade-off setting as most of the time users will play at normal zoom levels, and using a higher antialiasing setting would make unit images look blurry (as you can see in your the extreme zoom in pictures, FoG(U) units are sharper, but pixelated, while FoG(RB) units are blurred).

Also, I can set the maximum zoom-in level to a greater value (ie to not let you zoom-in so much as now), but that would be a forced limitation, and frankly I do not like to use those. The more liberty/options the better.