Battle for Seelow Heights... Road to Berlin

[GottaLove88s]

Well, the first result for Seelow Heights is in...

A total wipeout suffered by GL88's Germans, with cavehobbit scoring a crushing Soviet victory, rolling straight on thru to Berlin!

Soviet losses: 9 infantry, 2 artillery, 9 tanks, 1 recon car, 6 AA+trucks
German losses: 22 infantry, 2 mortars, 5 ATGs, 2 tanks, 1 recon car, 5 trucks+251s

A word to the wise... As the German defender, I tried to go forwards early, to defend the Hardenberg Line... Most of my front line were seen by his scouts and T70 recon cars, and toasted by his tanks at a range that was too far for my ATGs to respond... Then it was a race for me to retreat and defend quicker than he could push forwards... An impressive Russian victory!

Thanks for a great first game P-A! A nice win for the Reds... Lesson learned for the Germans: Don't try to defend the Hardenberg line. It's not going to work lol...

[glenghiscan]

I'm playing this scenario against cave hobbit as well with similar results for the first time but I can see how the Germans can win this one as I'm hoping caves going to find out ! Don't think you need to change too much to be honest but it would be nice if a sniper shot didn't take out AT guns but that's the way it is and I always take that into account with my force selections

[GottaLove88s]

it would be nice if a sniper shot didn't take out AT guns

Really?!?! Uh oh. Didn't even know that was possible. That MUST be disabled in v1.2

[jcb989]

it would be nice if a sniper shot didn't take out AT guns

Really?!?! Uh oh. Didn't even know that was possible. That MUST be disabled in v1.2

This is standard BA from what I recall? One thing you seem to have tweaked though making it easier is some of the elite soviet regular troops seem to have scouting and sniping, right?

[GottaLove88s]

This is standard BA from what I recall? One thing you seem to have tweaked though making it easier is some of the elite soviet regular troops seem to have scouting and sniping, right?

Hmmm, that's a goof. Sniper was supposed to be added for scouts only. I'll fix that for 1.2

[GottaLove88s]

CURRENT REVISION PLANS FOR v1.2

1. Drop $DEFAULT.BSF into the campaign folder to see if this activates 'dead unit LOS' code - Am not convinced that this is fully working yet (when it does, players should lose line of sight LOS from units when they die, not at the end of the next turn)
2. Reduce the purchase cost of Jagdpanther (currently 246) ... If a Tiger II costs only 12 more, it's a no brainer to buy... Jagdpanther isn't worth 36 more than a Tiger I
3. Consider removing the elite extra move from all scouts? They're fast enough without it!
4. Let the defending Germans move first
5. Tidy up messily placed barbed wire in southeast square of Kustrin
6. Review whether it's working for infantry to 'ride' on tanks (Players views welcome?)
7. Review ZiS-3 bombardment? It's too inaccurate (so on average 0-1 of 3 shot salvo will hit, having minimal effect on their target)
8. Review whether 82mm mortars are now too weak? (early feedback suggesting that 2-man 82mm is too weak; consider going back to 120mm)
9. Make smoke removal even more gradual (tweak to 10% chance for smoke removal, increasing by +10% every turn; rather than 25% chance, increasing by +25% every other turn)
10. Add back the GJS'44 'merge units' code (to permit two damaged units to merge together to become a single stronger one; with thanks to Enric & Amaris for that one )
11. Remove the trench corner at 32,48
12. Tank riders are kicked off if (i) the tank fires, or (ii) the tank is fired upon; (iii) tank riders lose men/morale if tank is attacked with HE (has anyone coded anything like this before?)
13. Fix/remove barbed wire by the stream; if it is damaged it somehow turns the stream into open ground
14. Modify AP for 88s so that they can still load into a transport, even when they're suppressed (suppression should stop them firing, not stop them running away lol; check if mortars/ZiS-3 are equally rabbit-like when in headlights)
15. Stop T70 and Pumas from breaking down (otherwise T70 can get stuck on the Oder bridge for turn 1, doh!)
16. Tweak victory objectives so that Russians must take and hold all four VPs until the end of the game to win
17. Add achievements, eg. Zhukov unit must survive, 3/4 ZiS-3 guns must survive, Take the Hardenberg within x turns, etc...
18. Remove ability for snipers to take out anti-tank guns/artillery with a single shot
19. Restrict sniper skill to scouts only

As always, all feedback welcome...

[Celeborn]

Just finished first game with Veritas and also witnessed sharp defeat of Germans. The script was nearly identical to that of GL88/cavehobbit's game where my forward defense along the H line was overrun with only modest Soviet losses. Infantry in particular were essentially sitting ducks despite being in trenches, while the (fortified) 88s went down fairly quickly a la all other ATGs in BA2. After one play it is too early to ascribe to the outcome to play balance (vice superior play on part of Veritas) and so am looking forward to a re-match. That said am going to nonetheless make a few pro-German suggestions:

--allow Germans to either deploy and/or allow greater visibility range from units at top of hill ( suspect there were a lot of binoculars up there)
--make stream in front of H Line genuinely impassable (current configuration suggests it acts a genuine obstacle). If this is not historically supported then maybe replace crossing point stream tiles with marsh/vegetation
--marsh/vegetation didn't seem to act as concealment terrain for infantry
--riders didn't appear visible
--add Panzershrecks and Panthers to German OB, SU-152 to Soviet

also wanted to reiterate previous post re needed fixes to smoke (hello Pip!)

Seelow is def the best MP scenario out there and I hope there will be several sequels.

[glenghiscan]

Disagree I think this will be winnable as axis with practice only played it twice especially when there's less soviet snipers and when it's decided on soviets getting all flags ! Personally I think cave hobbits aunthie is the best map on here by a long way and that's heavily axis biased that's what makes them all the more challenging and why you play certain maps over and over again to find a way to beat the odds ! Think this ones going to be a close 2nd though . Also when you play mirror games you need 1 side to be stronger

[Celeborn]

Had a couple bugs in last turn of new game; did not see 262 strike nor nebelwerfer and recon mission occurred but no effect either in terms of animation or game effect. Also had several moves that were "forgotten". I saved turn then completed but can't imagine that would have caused any problems.

[GottaLove88s]

Just finished first game with Veritas and also witnessed sharp defeat of Germans. The script was nearly identical to that of GL88/cavehobbit's game where my forward defense along the H line was overrun with only modest Soviet losses. Infantry in particular were essentially sitting ducks despite being in trenches, while the (fortified) 88s went down fairly quickly a la all other ATGs in BA2. After one play it is too early to ascribe to the outcome to play balance (vice superior play on part of Veritas) and so am looking forward to a re-match. That said am going to nonetheless make a few pro-German suggestions:

--allow Germans to either deploy and/or allow greater visibility range from units at top of hill ( suspect there were a lot of binoculars up there)
--make stream in front of H Line genuinely impassable (current configuration suggests it acts a genuine obstacle). If this is not historically supported then maybe replace crossing point stream tiles with marsh/vegetation
--marsh/vegetation didn't seem to act as concealment terrain for infantry
--riders didn't appear visible
--add Panzershrecks and Panthers to German OB, SU-152 to Soviet

also wanted to reiterate previous post re needed fixes to smoke (hello Pip!)

Seelow is def the best MP scenario out there and I hope there will be several sequels.

Thanks for helping to trial Seelow, Celeborn!

Your praise is generous indeed. You make me want to work even harder...

Your feedback is really helpful:

- Am experimenting with how to give units at higher levels (eg. on hills) or using tall buildings (eg.. watchtowers) greater visual range (Haven't quite got there yet, but am working on it)
- The problem with some stream squares acting as open ground is caused by the barbed wire. I've fixed this for v1.2 (Sorry!)
- From the games I'm playing tall grass or marsh grass both act to hide movement. If you were seen, could it have been in a marsh square without marsh grass? Or could he have hidden a scout nearby?
- Based on your feedback, I'm posting a vote on Panzershrecks and Panthers below...
- Are you reeeally sure you want to give the Reds a couple of Su-152s? The 122 is pretty darned powerful. Do you mind if I see how the first games play out. If it's still too easy for the Germans, 152s would be one way to help the Russians

Back to the BA2 Editor, I guess...

[GottaLove88s]

Guys, two votes please:

VOTE 1: A few testers have requested the return of Panthers. For now, Seelow Heights includes the option to buy Jagdpanthers (a later version of the Panther, with stronger sloping armour). Show of hands. Would players prefer to have the Jagdpanther or the original Panther?

VOTE 2: Several other testers have requested having Panzerfausts. To stay within BA2's strict unit limits, I can't add Panzerfausts. However, I'm considering adding Panzerfaust attack strength/animation to German infantry, to simulate infantry squads including a Panzerfaust. So the 2nd show of hands is would you prefer to keep infantry as they are (with grenades) or give them panzerfausts? This would only affect plain vanilla 'German infantry'. Commandos, Waffen SS, Engineers, Ostruppen, Scouts, etc, would stick with their normal anti-armour strength/animation...

Thanks for your help everyone

[jcb989]

Well, oddly my preference on Ballot Question 2 would be to create a 2-man unit with animation of panzerfausts and have it be a unit onto itself.
My thoughts are twofold; they would be a cheaper but more effective alternate stats regime to the regularly represented panzerschrek unit and also this approach would leave the standard infantry unit alone which the benefit of that is for standardization and expectations of game play; I see a general game play disadvantage to modifying the standard units. Such a unit has a precedent if you look at bazooka teams or the infamous British sticky bomber or the Soviet molotov cocktail units. Lastly as a 2-man unit, you can represent either standard infantry quality or in the future scenario, volkstrum unit quality.

My thoughts on a 2-man panzerfaust unit is that they would only fire 1 square but that firepower would be very deadly, I'm thinking high yellow or even green probability since such a special unit will be pretty dead meat if caught by enemy infantry units. If you must allow them to fire 2 squares then I think the accuracy should drop off much more precipitously than a standard bazooka unit. As my momma used to say, Sabotage (pronounced: Saba-too-gee) will be the key to the new unit's success. Note that there is no pre-existing German equivalent to the sticky bombers and molotov cocktail 1-square AT attack units so in effect you would be filling in an obvious design hole.

[jcb989]

I voted for keeping infantry as they are. If you intend additional Seelow campaign scenarios, there will be room for this new unit I suggest to make an appearance.

[morge4]

Vote1 - I would like to see a choice of Panther and JagdPanther...let the player decide what unit he wants

Vote2 - BA2 has a Panzerschek unit. It seems that it could be modified to a Panzerfaust unit? I'm for leaving infantry as is otherwise.

[glenghiscan]

I agree with morge ! Be nice if there was some way for axis to lay mines or some such but I've not seen this any where on any map on ba1 or ba 2

[GottaLove88s]

Guys, two votes please:

VOTE 1: A few testers have requested the return of Panthers. For now, Seelow Heights includes the option to buy Jagdpanthers (a later version of the Panther, with stronger sloping armour). Show of hands. Would players prefer to have the Jagdpanther or the original Panther?

VOTE 2: Several other testers have requested having Panzerfausts. To stay within BA2's strict unit limits, I can't add Panzerfausts. However, I'm considering adding Panzerfaust attack strength/animation to German infantry, to simulate infantry squads including a Panzerfaust. So the 2nd show of hands is would you prefer to keep infantry as they are (with grenades) or give them panzerfausts? This would only affect plain vanilla 'German infantry'. Commandos, Waffen SS, Engineers, Ostruppen, Scouts, etc, would stick with their normal anti-armour strength/animation...

Thanks for your help everyone

Thanks for your responses so far guys! Ok, from early responses, the following seems to be the most acceptable compromise:

1. Include regular panthers AND jagdpanthers... Neither for free... Let the German player decide which he wants to buy (I'll have to scrap something else in the German options, because of BA's 64-unit limit per side, including all available options, but I'll figure out a way)

2. Add in 2-3 Panzershreks as purchasable infantry options for the Germans. The 'shrek is about twice the size and even greater power than the 'faust (and tbh I'd forgotten about them becos I so rarely use 'em myself). I'd agree with Justin tho. Let it fire max 2 spaces, darned near lethal at 1 space into the side/rear, but much less accurate/effective at 2 squares. Again, as above, I'll have to drop 2-3 other options to stay under BA's 64-unit limit, but there's enough there that's loseable... For example, I'm guessing the Germans don't really need those Brandenburg commandos, which feel kind of overpowered anyhow...

Fair summary of what you'd like to see next?

[GottaLove88s]

I agree with morge ! Be nice if there was some way for axis to lay mines or some such but I've not seen this any where on any map on ba1 or ba 2

Am sure that Enric did something clever with mines... And Amaris did too, I think, for land units and for naval mines for the Pacific scenarios... Worth looking into this?

[morge4]

I agree with morge ! Be nice if there was some way for axis to lay mines or some such but I've not seen this any where on any map on ba1 or ba 2

Am sure that Enric did something clever with mines... And Amaris did too, I think, for land units and for naval mines for the Pacific scenarios... Worth looking into this?

I think so...would be nice to have Engineers lay mines...but it needs to be limited, same with tank traps...I think we all remember the Carpiquet Airfield littered with tank traps!!

[GottaLove88s]

Oh boy! I'd forgotten that... Obviously u played Justin in Carpiquet too, Al?

[cavehobbit]

I agree with morge ! Be nice if there was some way for axis to lay mines or some such but I've not seen this any where on any map on ba1 or ba 2

Am sure that Enric did something clever with mines... And Amaris did too, I think, for land units and for naval mines for the Pacific scenarios... Worth looking into this?

Yes, there is some scripts for mines. I think it was Enric who wrote some script that makes mines attacking both sides. I know I used a script for engineers in my Scheldt scenarios (BA1). Jon, I've sent you a PM with a link to the scenarios if you like to have a look.