Overlap/Fighting Questions

[Bugle999]

Help/advice greatly appreciated....

1. You are fighting in an overlap position. Your opponents break but the friends you are supporting in overlap do not pursue (fighting another BG) - Do you pursue yourself? Is there any occassion that a BG only fighting as an overlap pursues broken opponents? Please direct me to the appropriate place in the rules...

2. A BG is fighting in an overlap position (front corner to corner contact with a friendly BG in frontal combat with enemy) . According to P.50 it is FREE to move, charge or evade etc. If it chooses to move forward (slightly) so that it is still in a qualifying overlap position but now ALSO in 'side to side' contact with the enemy BG can it subsequently (in the next turn) make a 90 degree turn and fight the enemy by bringing its front edge into contact with the flank of the enemy BG (potentially with more dice as it will have more bases in contact after the turn)? This appears possible as explained on P.76, 77 & 78 except that it says, 'IF NOT, they can engage in melee as follows.....' This appears to disqualify the 90 degree turn as an option IF they are 'eligible' to fight as an overlap. If this is NOT possible can someone please clarify how one exploits the open flank with a unit that IS IN overlap position (other than moving away, turning and then doing a flank charge - potentially 3 turns later?)

3. A MF BG is fighting an enemy BG to it's front when it is charge in the flank by a LH BG of 4 (2 in front rank who both make contact). The LH hits the two end MF elements (who were fighting as an overlap in the frontal combat) and so they both immediately turned to fight the LH. These two MF elements line up opposite the LH and then have to move back to maintain contact with the rest of their MF friends - the LH are moved forward so as to maintain contact. The impact phase is fought.... In the movement phase the MF BG wishes to feed more 'spare' elements into the fight against the LH. Adding two into an overlap position would appear to be an option...yes/no??? Could they also (or alternatively) add 2 bases behind those already fighting the LH to form a rear rank that would add dice to the combat - this would require the LH to be moved back (from where they were moved forward from) and the original 2 MF to be moved forward into contact so that there is room for the rear rank to fit in. Advice or other options please - sorry if it sounds a bit long winded but it is quite a simple situation really!!!

MTIA to all.

[SirGarnet]

1. Overlap combat is still close combat and your opponents routed. You can pursue if you meet the conditions under Initial Pursuit, first and second bullets on p101. You will need to wheel to engage (p108, bullet 3).

2. <Edit>

3. First, the diagram on p72 and the normal turning rules indicate the overlapping MF who were 2 deep when hit in flank now turn 2 deep rather than 2 wide, so they occupy the exact same space.

Since the LH charged it must be their turn, and they go first in feeding more bases into melee. If they don't expand frontage in combat, the MF (since it's not their turn) can only expand frontage with bases not in combat to face an overlap on the outside.

The MF could not expand to face an overlap on their inside flank of the turned bases (i.e., the flank edge which faces in the original direction of the MF BG) since moving there would not expand frontage. In other words, you could expand down the leg of the "L" shape resulting from a flank attack but you can't expand to make it a "T". As an example, in the illustration on p72 a hypothetical third rank of legionaries with nothing else to do could not "expand" to face the overlapping cavalry on the Roman left, but during the Roman turn could expand to overlap the cavalry on the outside flank.

Where a turned flank is only one base deep, it is logical and I think implied that it can be pushed forward enough to add a second rank as part of adding troops to melee because its physical position is an artifact of base depth and the last bullet on p56, but I did not find anything specifically focusing on adding a second rank here.

[Bugle999]

My question 1. seems to have been answered i.e. if fighting in an overlap posiition you pursue routing enemy just the same as if you were in front edge contact...please confirm.

I have reposted the other questions (hopefully in a way they will get answered).

Thanks.

[rogerg]

I do not have the rules with me. However, if overlappers pursue then it is something I have missed in the past twelve months. Only the BG with bases in front edge contact pursue.

[WhiteKnight]

I'm sure Roger is right...if fighting only as an overlap, you don't pursue.

Martin

[SirGarnet]

I'm sure Roger is right...if fighting only as an overlap, you don't pursue.

Martin

I have no vested interest either way, just trying to understand the rules.

The Initial Pursuit rule says "An unbroken battle group, all of whose close combat opponents (except those only fighting it as an overlap) have broken and routed this phase, always pursues unless . . . " [lists various exceptions that don't apply]

Applying to the hypothetical situation, it looks like
- an unbroken battle group
- in close combat (overlap is defined as in close combat (p134))
- all its close combat opponents have broken and routed (just the one opponent it was overlapping)
so then
- it always pursues . . . .

Please poke any holes in this, or else maybe pursuit is not intended and errata is in order.

[Bugle999]

maybe 'one of the gods' could give us a definitive answer with this one - its either a quick 'yes they do' or 'no they don't'...
MTIA

[Bugle999]

Any help with 2 or 3 please....

2. Basically - Can you turn 90 degrees into flank contact if you are already in a position to provide overlap support in the melee?

3. Basically - Can you move elements who have been turned and moved back to retain legal BG contact (due to flank contact) forward again to make room for rear support behind them. This would entail also moving back the enemy fklank contacters who had previously been moved forward to maintain contact?

[rogerg]

The rule sentence is a little unwieldy. The subject is the unbroken battle group. If all this battle group's close combat opponents have broken except those fighting it as an overlap then it pursues.

If the BG is only engaged as an overlap for its friends and the friend's opponent routs, then all it's close combat opponents will have broken, there was only one. However, this is an opponent that meets the exception - fighting as an overlap - so it does not pursue.

The confusion is probably caused because bases that are overlapped do not inflict damage on their overlappers. I do not think of my bases in overlap as having opponents. This is just an interpretation though. In the author's mind it would seem that an overlapped base has two opponents, only one of which, that in front of it, it inflicts damage on.[/i]

------------------- One day later --------------

I go home and read the rules and find I am wrong. With a second look of course, it is obvious.

[rbodleyscott]

Help/advice greatly appreciated....

1. You are fighting in an overlap position. Your opponents break but the friends you are supporting in overlap do not pursue (fighting another BG) - Do you pursue yourself? Is there any occassion that a BG only fighting as an overlap pursues broken opponents? Please direct me to the appropriate place in the rules...

Yes they pursue.

 An unbroken battle group, all of whose close combat opponents (except those only fighting it as an overlap) have broken and routed this phase, always pursues unless:

This does not state that BGs fighting only as an overlap don't pursue.

What it states is that BGs pursue their frontal opponents even if there are unbroken enemy who were only fighting them as an overlap.

2. A BG is fighting in an overlap position (front corner to corner contact with a friendly BG in frontal combat with enemy) . According to P.50 it is FREE to move, charge or evade etc. If it chooses to move forward (slightly) so that it is still in a qualifying overlap position but now ALSO in 'side to side' contact with the enemy BG can it subsequently (in the next turn) make a 90 degree turn and fight the enemy by bringing its front edge into contact with the flank of the enemy BG (potentially with more dice as it will have more bases in contact after the turn)? This appears possible as explained on P.76, 77 & 78 except that it says, 'IF NOT, they can engage in melee as follows.....' This appears to disqualify the 90 degree turn as an option IF they are 'eligible' to fight as an overlap. If this is NOT possible

It is not possible.

can someone please clarify how one exploits the open flank with a unit that IS IN overlap position (other than moving away, turning and then doing a flank charge - potentially 3 turns later?)

One can't. This is intentional.

3. A MF BG is fighting an enemy BG to it's front when it is charge in the flank by a LH BG of 4 (2 in front rank who both make contact). The LH hits the two end MF elements (who were fighting as an overlap in the frontal combat) and so they both immediately turned to fight the LH. These two MF elements line up opposite the LH and then have to move back to maintain contact with the rest of their MF friends

Not exactly. They turn using the normal rules for a 90 turn, so they end up 1 base wide and 2 deep.

- the LH are moved forward so as to maintain contact. The impact phase is fought.... In the movement phase the MF BG wishes to feed more 'spare' elements into the fight against the LH. Adding two into an overlap position would appear to be an option...yes/no???

They can only match an enemy overlap in the enemy turn. In there own turn they can add 2 in an overlap position.

Could they also (or alternatively) add 2 bases behind those already fighting the LH to form a rear rank that would add dice to the combat - this would require the LH to be moved back (from where they were moved forward from) and the original 2 MF to be moved forward into contact so that there is room for the rear rank to fit in. Advice or other options please - sorry if it sounds a bit long winded but it is quite a simple situation really!!!

They can, if they choose, reform the whole BG to face the LH (but are not obliged to - the reason for choosing not to would be if there is another enemy BG who would able to charge their new flank if they did).

[WhiteKnight]

Right....thanks once again. I had wrongly made an assumption that isn't there, nor intended! I think all my opponents in and out of competitive play have played pursuits in the same way, if it's occurred.

So you roll the VMD for all the pursuing BGs, fastest moves first, no-one's obliged to burst through (but may be able to interpenetrate) friends who are in the way, as you can contract bases and wheel as necessary?

Glad I can play it right from now on and may hesitate a little more before putting BGs into overlap unless really needed! I think some opponents may get a bit of a surprise, too, when this happens.

Martin

[stenic]

Usefull answers thanks Richard. We had some related scenarios come up which we think we sorted but aren't sure.

We get the idea that in overlap, either corner to corner you cannot swing 90deg. and hit the flank a la DBM style.

But if 2 BGs are in mutual side edge, with no frontal opponents we assume either of them can wheel and force a combat.

Ie: A BG of LF are sneacking past an enemy Pike BG such that they are in side to side edge. The pikes are not in combat. The LF do not get all the way past but stop whilst they are side to side.

Presumably the pikes can in their impact phase wheel and immediately hit the LH in the flank. But as they were less than 1MU it does not constitute a flank charge but is a normal charge. In the manouevre phase one wil condorm and melee acts out as normal.

In our case the LF evaded but could equally have ben MF who had to stay put.

Is this correct ?



Aslo, I couldn't find the answer in overlap eligibility (probably there in glaring black & white but just could not see it), can a file of troops be in close combat to their front and an overlap support if they are if mutual side edge with enemy at the same time (a la DBM style) or does it just count as fighting to its front ?

Thanks,

Steve

[rbodleyscott]

But if 2 BGs are in mutual side edge, with no frontal opponents we assume either of them can wheel and force a combat.

Turn 90 degree, not wheel. And only if they aren't already able to fight them as an overlap - i.e if the enemy aren't already fighting to their front.

Aslo, I couldn't find the answer in overlap eligibility (probably there in glaring black & white but just could not see it), can a file of troops be in close combat to their front and an overlap support if they are if mutual side edge with enemy at the same time (a la DBM style) or does it just count as fighting to its front ?

Each base can only fight once in melee. Frontal opponents take priority (IIRC).

[rogerg]

My apologies for the misleading post earlier. I must remember to read what is there rather than what I expect to be there.

[domblas]

following the point 2 of the original question, why do u say ur BG would need to move backward then pivot than charge, 3 turn in all.

it seems to me that ur free BG can pivot 80 ° during normal move and be well prepared for ur next impact phase

[Seldon]

ok between this thread and the other thread discussing the same issue I am getting a little unsure about what can and what cannot be done. And this is quite critical.

So let me ask about this one more time ( I am sorry to insist but I am not totally sure I get all the alternatives )

We start from this position where for whatever reason the yellow player is fighting with two battle groups against one blue player battle group. (one of yellow, the red outline battle group is in overlap )




It is now the movement phase for yellow player

The yellow player can choose to have the red outlined BG fight as an overlap in the next melee phase but only if he does not move that BG

Alternativeley since the redoutlined BG is not engaged other than as an overlap it could choose to move ( thus effectiveley cancelling its chances as fighting as an overlap )

If he chooses to move, abandoning the option to figt as an overlap in this upcoming melee phase he could do the following..

during this movement phase move forward and wheel, so that in the next yellow impact phase the unit would be able to charge the flank

the move forward is so that a legal flank can be attempted by contacting a flank edge and to have bases beyond the from edge of the enemy
the wheel is needed because you will not be allowed to wheel when charging since it starts within 1"

note: the corner of the red outline BG is still in contact despite the slight appearence in the picture


Then you fight melee, the red outline BG no longer able to fight as overlap,

Then on the next turn you fight on the blue player melee phase, again red outline BG is not participating

Then in yellow impact phase the red outline BG charges, nothing moves unless stepping would allow more bases to fight, if this is not the case then nothing moves...



here I wonder if the base already engaged to the front fights on impact against the new attacker ?

finally in movement you conform and this is the position by the time of melee


overall the red outlined battlegroup has had to sacrifice participating in two melee phases ( yellow melee and blue melee ) in order to finally charge on impact on the flank

is this correct or am I missing something?

[neilhammond]

Hi,

Yes, I agree with your analysis. The only point to query is turning the front rank contacted by the flank charge. P 56 last bullet states that the front base is turned. So you would end up with the entire file turned, not just the rear 2 ranks.

You can avoid this (if you wish) by lining up the flank charge to hit the middle or rear ranker, who would turn, leaving the front ranker fighting forward. Providing you don't wheel whilst within 1 MU of the enemy it will still count as a flank charge, irrespective of which rank you hit.

[rogerg]

The blue base in contact cannot be charged. The move would have to be far enough ahead so that when wheeling to charge the second base is contacted.

I cannot remember seeing the above done in a game. Most competent player are unlikely to leave a flank so wide open. In any case, sacrificing the overlap for two rounds of melee is a questionable tactic. If the stationary unit can afford to lose the two extra combat dice from the overlap, it is presumably capable of winning without the flank charge assistance. If it isn't doing that well, losing 50% of the combat dice for two rounds is rather risky.

[rbodleyscott]

The blue base in contact cannot be charged.

Why?

[nikgaukroger]

Last bullet on page 57 I would think.