Discussion about change to XP rules v3.10

[pk867]

Hi,

The XP rules afford units that have experience gain attributes outside of the normal way. (i.e. Research upgrades)

So this can reward players without having to invest in Research.

Maybe we need to tie the effectiveness (i.e. morale) that the unit has, to gain benefit of those bonuses.

So if the EFF drops below a number then the unit loses Attribute bonuses. You can have high experience, but if the

morale is low that unit can not perform the same as a unit with high morale.

This does not have to lower all of the attributes maybe just some of them.

Maybe you need to be at 85 EFF to receive the full ATT bonuses. Below 85 you lose some.

We can come up with a table that shows what you gain when. This may reduce the chance of units reaching

Guard or high ATT bonuses when the EFF is low when under siege.

At 70 EFF you gain some ATT bonus. At 80 you gain some more. At 85 or 90 you have full benefits. Something like that.

Elite units that are paid for or earn that status (i.e. guards & Paras) should not benefit from these new XP bonuses.

Once they have that Elite status those units have bonuses they can not lose.

Thoughts?

[JimR]

What problem is this proposed change trying to solve? In other words, why and how will the game be better if these changes are adopted? (I can see that morale levels would become even more important than they already are; and that units with low morale or effectiveness would be unlikely to become Guards.)

[Cybvep]

I don't think that these changes are necessary. Efficiency is already very important, there is no reason to make it even more important. However, there are some problems with air units, especially bombers, which become too hard to kill at high EXP levels and it's too easy to gain EXP by bombing GARs etc.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I think that the XP rules add some interesting flavor to the game and you now can get crack troops to use in important battles. Initially the Axis have this advantage, but the Allies get it too.

What works a little against gathering XP from battles is that you get the same XP from rolling over weak garrisons than killing tough tank or mech units. One could e. g. give differentiated XP depending the defending unit type.

Current values:
/* XP points gained from combat */
NAVAL_VS_NAVAL_ATTACK_XP 5
NAVAL_VS_NAVAL_DEFENSE_XP 5
NAVAL_VS_AIR_ATTACK_XP 0
NAVAL_VS_AIR_DEFENSE_XP 3
NAVAL_VS_GROUND_ATTACK_XP 0
NAVAL_VS_SUB_EVASION_ATTACK_XP 3
SUB_VS_CONVOY_ATTACK_XP 3
SUB_EVASION_VS_NAVAL_DEFENSE_XP 3
FIGHTER_VS_AIR_ATTACK_XP 3
FIGHTER_VS_AIR_DEFENSE_XP 4
BOMBER_VS_AIR_ATTACK_XP 2
BOMBER_VS_AIR_DEFENSE_XP 2
FIGHTER_VS_NAVAL_ATTACK_XP 2
TAC_BOMBER_VS_NAVAL_ATTACK_XP 3
STRAT_BOMBER_VS_NAVAL_ATTACK_XP 3
AIR_VS_NAVAL_DEFENSE_XP 2
AIR_VS_SUB_EVASION_ATTACK_XP 2
FIGHTER_VS_GROUND_ATTACK_XP 2
TAC_BOMBER_VS_GROUND_ATTACK_XP 3
STRAT_BOMBER_VS_GROUND_ATTACK_XP 2
AIR_VS_GROUND_DEFENSE_XP 2
FIGHTER_VS_RESOURCE_ATTACK_XP 2
TAC_BOMBER_VS_RESOURCE_ATTACK_XP 2
STRAT_BOMBER_VS_RESOURCE_ATTACK_XP 3
GROUND_VS_GROUND_ATTACK_XP 4
GROUND_VS_GROUND_DEFENSE_XP 6
GROUND_VS_AIR_ATTACK_XP 2
GROUND_VS_AIR_DEFENSE_XP 4
GROUND_VS_NAVAL_DEFENSE_XP 2
GROUND_VS_PARTISAN_ATTACK_XP 3

Some changes could be.
Old:
GROUND_VS_GROUND_ATTACK_XP 4
GROUND_VS_PARTISAN_ATTACK_XP 3

New:
GROUND_VS_GARRISON_ATTACK_XP 2
GROUND_VS_PARTISAN_ATTACK_XP 2
GROUND_VS_ELITE_ATTACK_XP 5
GROUND_VS_CORPS_ATTACK_XP 4
GROUND_VS_MECH_ATTACK_XP 4
GROUND_VS_ARMOR_ATTACK_XP 5

Old:
FIGHTER_VS_GROUND_ATTACK_XP 2
TAC_BOMBER_VS_GROUND_ATTACK_XP 3
STRAT_BOMBER_VS_GROUND_ATTACK_XP 2

New:
FIGHTER_VS_GARRISON_ATTACK_XP 1
TAC_BOMBER_VS_GARRISON_ATTACK_XP 1
STRAT_BOMBER_VS_GARRISON_ATTACK_XP 1

FIGHTER_VS_ELITE_ATTACK_XP 2
TAC_BOMBER_VS_ELITE_ATTACK_XP 4
STRAT_BOMBER_VS_ELITE_ATTACK_XP 3

FIGHTER_VS_CORPS_ATTACK_XP 2
TAC_BOMBER_VS_CORPS_ATTACK_XP 3
STRAT_BOMBER_VS_CORPS_ATTACK_XP 2

FIGHTER_VS_MECH_ATTACK_XP 2
TAC_BOMBER_VS_MECH_ATTACK_XP 3
STRAT_BOMBER_VS_MECH_ATTACK_XP 2

FIGHTER_VS_ARMOR_ATTACK_XP 2
TAC_BOMBER_VS_ARMOR_ATTACK_XP 4
STRAT_BOMBER_VS_ARMOR_ATTACK_XP 2

Old:
FIGHTER_VS_AIR_ATTACK_XP 3
FIGHTER_VS_AIR_DEFENSE_XP 4
BOMBER_VS_AIR_ATTACK_XP 2
BOMBER_VS_AIR_DEFENSE_XP 3

New:
FIGHTER_VS_AIR_ATTACK_XP 3
FIGHTER_VS_AIR_DEFENSE_XP 5
BOMBER_VS_AIR_ATTACK_XP 2
BOMBER_VS_AIR_DEFENSE_XP 3

The defense increases is to simulate that fighter pilots being shot down over friendly territory has a better chance returning to service. Thus keeping the pilot XP.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I think changes like what I propose above will take away most of the reasons players are just targeting garrisons to gain easy XP. Now you get so little XP from doing it that step losses from flak and defensive fire might be worse than the gains.

My experience with XP is that units gain XP a little bit too fast, particularly the Axis player. A lot of this comes from attacks in France and Russia against garrison units. If you lower the ground and air xp vs garrisons you will actually fix that issue. The rest seems to be pretty well balanced.

My suggestions below kept the XP gained as an attacker as pretty much the same vs corps and mech units. Against armor and elite units you get slightly more XP. Those were the toughest ones to fight.

The elite unit = Paratroopers, SS and Guards.

[JimR]

Reducing the "easy" experience points from attacks against garrisons, and giving extra value to experience gained against elite units, sounds like a good and balanced way to approach this problem. In a game I'm playing right now (as the Axis), experience has raised the strength some units so much that they are nearly unassailable. As a player I like that, of course, but making me work for this experience (by reducing the gains against garrison units) would avoid a situation where (e.g.) supercharged Italians can fight off everybody else.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

The above changes have been implemented and grouped into a minor patch called GS v3.20. Are there any other minor things we could have fixed at the same time before releasing the updates? With minor things I mean things that don't need a lot of coding and testing. E. g. tweaks in general.txt or a minor bug that should be fixed.

[Craw]

Is 3.20 generally available, or is it being tested in beta?

[Morris]

I think changes like what I propose above will take away most of the reasons players are just targeting garrisons to gain easy XP. Now you get so little XP from doing it that step losses from flak and defensive fire might be worse than the gains.

My experience with XP is that units gain XP a little bit too fast, particularly the Axis player. A lot of this comes from attacks in France and Russia against garrison units. If you lower the ground and air xp vs garrisons you will actually fix that issue. The rest seems to be pretty well balanced.

My suggestions below kept the XP gained as an attacker as pretty much the same vs corps and mech units. Against armor and elite units you get slightly more XP. Those were the toughest ones to fight.

The elite unit = Paratroopers, SS and Guards.

at first , I do agree the above changes ! It will make the game more balance.

at second , Does it mean that all the elites unit's(para, SS , guards) fight (no matter attack or defence) will gain more xp or only the rival gain more xp ?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

You get the elite XP if the DEFENDER is elite. Any attacker will get that XP. You don't need to be elite to get the elite XP.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

GS v3.20 is being tested in a beta group. In addition to the XP changes we are testing a few bugfixes and changes to movement and attack range.

Some in the beta group meant we could improve on the movement for naval units and movement / attack range for air units (including CV's). So we are now trying with values where tech will increase movement and attack range to a bigger degree than before. Initial air ranges are higher and naval ranges slightly lower (except subs).

So far the changes seem interesting. E. g. you need fewer rebases for Case Yellow and 1941 Barbarossa.

[fangotango]

Will their be any changes to naval XP values? I notice that U-boats get 3 XP for attacking convoys. That seems pretty high, and the Axis U-boats gain experience very quickly with little risk involved in what is a target rich environment, especially early on. The DD's of the Allies rarely get to attack anything, so their XP gains come very slowly. Given that a convoy is less risky to attack then a GAR, I would think 0 or 1 XP might be more appropriate.

[GogTheMild]

Ft just doesn't like me taking his convoys - and DDs - apart!

[fangotango]

Funny guy, eh? I'll have you know that players of all abilities have and are taking my convoys and DD's apart. And this begins well before the subs get experienced.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

It's only very early in the war that the subs can attack convoys unhindered. A clever Allied player will purchase quite a few DD's so he can escort most of his convoys. At least 3 escorts per convoy. That means you can get 2 attacks against a sub. Even with evasion rules you will get some hits in and gain XP.

When you have strategic bombers or CV's in the area you can actually hit the sub with 4 attacks. Subs have a tendency to drop quite a bit below 7 steps. That means they lose XP when repaired.

I can't say I had any issues with subs being too powerful in my games.

With GS v3.20 beta we have extended the air ranges, particularly for CV's. So subs are more vulnerable to CV airstrikes.

[Morris]

It's only very early in the war that the subs can attack convoys unhindered. A clever Allied player will purchase quite a few DD's so he can escort most of his convoys. At least 3 escorts per convoy. That means you can get 2 attacks against a sub. Even with evasion rules you will get some hits in and gain XP.

When you have strategic bombers or CV's in the area you can actually hit the sub with 4 attacks. Subs have a tendency to drop quite a bit below 7 steps. That means they lose XP when repaired.

I can't say I had any issues with subs being too powerful in my games.

With GS v3.20 beta we have extended the air ranges, particularly for CV's. So subs are more vulnerable to CV airstrikes.

at present , when Axis have got several full experienced subs, the only choice for Allies escort mission is subs escort : 6 subs escort one transport !