Severe balancing issues?

[Wc_Eend]

Bear with me, I have only played the tutorial missions and half of act 1, but I fear this game has some serious (unit) balancing issues.

I have read the unit balancing thread, but think this needs a tread of its own.

I am familiar with panzer corps. In this game you instantly grasp which unit is better than another.
You instantly grasp that you needs some infantry units for fighting in close terrain and that you need artillery to support your assault.

The warhammer universe is very compelling and I really want this game to succeed. The game itself is also fun enough at the moment but I fear that only 20% of the units are useful.

Some examples:

Why bother with al other infantry when the command squad is superior to everything the imperial guard can field?
Assault infantry needs a big buff. The lose strenght when assaulting because the defending unit shoots first with their ranged weapon. Maybe add a range 1 weapon for ogryns?

Morale for infantry also needs a change (already ongoing i think?) Infantry should get morale up quicker when receiving a refit or replacements.

It is hard to determine if a unit within a class is better than another.
The basic salamander scout is a very effective unit against infantry, but also surprisingly against light and medium armor. It hasan autocannon and two heavy bolters. The hydra is priced higher and has 4 autocannons compared to the salamanders one. But the salamander is still more effective when testing both together. Very strange.

The point about the leman russes with or without side sponsons has already been made by another tester.

The most effective strategy seems to buy a lot of (3 or 4 same type of) tanks because they are superior to other classes.
Which seems a shame because there are so many cool units in this game!
A lot of units don't feel useful at the moment (maybe I am wrong and this changes in the later game?)

Don't get the gist of this post wrong, I do really like the game and only want to improve on it.
For me, managing and upgrading your core army is a big part of the experience and this feels somewhat lacking at the moment.

Maybe i am comparing the game too much to panzer corps?
Also I'd like a bit longer scenario's with more turns. Are there longer scenario's after act 1?

Thanks for reading my (far too long) post!

[zakblood]

act 1 is the biggest, with 2 and 3 together not being of the same size as 1....

all maps are different in size so game length is determined by objectives and member playing it i guess.

you know more about the units than i do so can't comment on the rest, i just use tanks tbh

the last one in the list for me is most of the time the best one, so i just buy as many of them as i can, and roll over everything

[Kerensky]

Aggressive price balancing is another item that could use some attention. There are many units that have really powerful, or weak, capabilities because of their weapon load outs. For example, Space Marine Tactical has less than half the offensive power of Space Marine Tactical with Grav Guns because of the simple fact that the former unit is a 1 weapon unit and the later is a 2 weapon unit. Another example is the Destroyer unit, who is held back quite a bit by the fact that it is a single unit weapon. This is fine, and it does add considerable unit variety, but it must be properly priced balanced. For example, the Destroyer unit will probably be available at a significant discount. The Stormsword upgrade is another example. With it's reduced armament, it's price and general stats have been altered to better reflect it's capabilities.

[Wc_Eend]

Well Zakblood, I can assure you, the last unit in the list is not always the best one

Indeed, if the pricing balance is right, then these issues cease to exist.
If a Leman Russ with side sponsons costs more than one with with a better main gun but without the heavy bolters, I absolutely fine with that.

Some extra detail about what unit fits what role and what is more effective against what could be very good.
Also rate of fire seems to be important but is not listed in the unit stats page?

Are there scenario's with more than 30 turns and a big map in the game?

EDIT: something else, now you can buy every unit type for an act starting from the first mission in the act.
It would be a lot nicer if the units are gradually introduced, so you have a feeling of progression during the act. Every mission also gives new equipment, which is an important driving factor!

[zakblood]

well it may not be the case as i only had a quick glance, i balance my tank force with best armour = survive ability is my first concern so it can take the most hits and live, second i like its fire power and range with price concerns coming last ...

so last battle was 3 titans, the one on the right, sorry don't know any names tbh 30 odd tanks, again last one in the list of the last game, looked good and took no end of hits and did about 3 to 5 damage per round with no return hits so liked it and stuck with it, no infantry of my own, only the units i couldn't sell, so yes needed some to take and yellow hexes, and i think 1 scout, and that's my army...

in the end i lost 3 tanks, with most of the rest having 1 out of the 2 what ever it's called left, so not much damage tbh or loses in final battle, wouldn't want to re try it without me tanks

will get names and you can tell me if there's better ones

ok,

titans are called reaver battle titans

reaver.jpg (77.7 KiB) Viewed 1806 times

banesword upgraded.jpg (57.74 KiB) Viewed 1806 times

tank.jpg (24.05 KiB) Viewed 1806 times

tanks are baneswords upgraded and seen firing it's main gun in this shot

and they can be seen in action here

Code: Select all

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=321&t=54064

in one of my posts / threads... ty

[Galdred]

Aggressive price balancing is another item that could use some attention. There are many units that have really powerful, or weak, capabilities because of their weapon load outs. For example, Space Marine Tactical has less than half the offensive power of Space Marine Tactical with Grav Guns because of the simple fact that the former unit is a 1 weapon unit and the later is a 2 weapon unit. Another example is the Destroyer unit, who is held back quite a bit by the fact that it is a single unit weapon. This is fine, and it does add considerable unit variety, but it must be properly priced balanced. For example, the Destroyer unit will probably be available at a significant discount. The Stormsword upgrade is another example. With it's reduced armament, it's price and general stats have been altered to better reflect it's capabilities.

Why not remove the bolsters for grav gun marines? They sure cannot fire both weapons at the same time, and if they had to chose, the bolter would have zero advantage over the grav gun. The problem wih pricing is that more often than not, the main problem is the number of slots for core units.
However, the extra side weapons are usually not expensive enough indeed (especially true for Leman Russ upgraded weapons and annihilator and Shadowsword weapon upgrade).
The destroyer has a poor main gun. It's problem is that it misses or does not penetrate most of the time, so it ends up being worse than many other Leman Russ variants at tank hunting. If it was better at long range, or if the tank had better base accuracy, it could have a very specialized role.
But with multi shots basilisks, it is probably better to soften enemy armor with basilisk first. So basically, the cost is not the only issue. These units need a niche they can fill.

[Wc_Eend]

Why not remove the bolsters for grav gun marines?

Or halve the strenght of the bolters and grav guns, because only half of the space marines will fire them at the same moment? Hmm no just remove the bolters, better solution!

[vadersson]

Why are Grav guns such a big deal in the game? They are really hard to portray effectively in this type of game. They rock against armor, but against the ork infantry they should be next to useless. I suggest taking the grav guns away and just having basic Tactical Squads. Then compensate by making more options for Devastator Squads; Bolter, Missile, Plasma, melta, etc. You could even add Sternguard Veteran Squads and Vanguard Assault squads (with various weapon types) if you want more SM infantry choices.

Thanks,
Duncan