Improvement to Recon

[proline]

One of the other threads reminded me of how bad recon is in PC. That's been discussed to death in other threads like 'the case against recon' so I won't repeat it all here. The gist of it is you can't keep them alive unless you keep them near your army the whole time. What I did want to bring up is why is there a 1 move penalty for using recon movement? Are recon really so OP that the player needs to be punished for using their one useful ability? I say get rid of it and give recon the minor buff. If we are really worried about the early game effect, just reduce the speed of recon units available pre-1941 by 1.

This would allow recon to operate a little more effectively on their own as they'd have a better chance of being able to get to a safe position if they encounter the enemy. Other ideas for making them stay alive a little longer, like letting them 'hide' in close terrain would break the AI, whereas this wouldn't mess anything up. Now I know some of you do manage to use recon for scouting around your ball of units by going 4 steps forward 3 steps back, but recon should have strategic uses too- ie. it should help you plan your scenario (scout out defenses, be notified of impending attacks when they are far enough out that you can actually prepare a bit) not just avoid ambushes which can be done many other ways. I think buffing recon would add some more depth to the game, and recon would still have HUGE drawbacks-

-they often die in one shot by post 1942 tanks or AT, especially if the latter are overstrengthed which is often, and even if they live they will surely die in two hits
-the AI goes after them like a dog on a bone
-their attack is useless post 1942 except against undefended soft targets in open terrain
-they take up space in your unit cap that could go do a unit that is combat effective

[Horst]

What recon units need is some kind of evasion ability like the submarines when they get attacked. Whenever a recon unit defends from ground units, artillery fire or planes, there is a 50% chance it will retreat automatically away from the attacker if possible. If the chance fails or retreat path is blocked, it will defend itself normally.

[Tarrak]

I agree with Horst here. Giving the recons evasion without changing anything tho may make them really OP. To fix the possible arising problems it could cause, like taking a VH and defending it for a few rounds with a lucky evade streak, one could remove from the recons the ability to take VH, like it's already impossible for Artillery or AAA. Additionally if evading the recon get forced to withdraw one hex, if it can't withdraw it must fight. The evasion chance could be based on the speed and initiative difference between the recon and the attacking unit. This could simulate, that it is easier for the recon to outrun a slow unit with low range but a lot harder to avoid something nimble.

[bebro]

Would be nice for modders if an ability like "evade" was added as a trait in the eqp file.

[Razz1]

-they often die in one shot by post 1942 tanks or AT, especially if the latter are overstrengthed which is often, and even if they live they will surely die in two hits

My recons usually have two or three stars by 1942 which helps. They gain experience quickly. Recon is cannon fodder.

-the AI goes after them like a dog on a bone

Use that to your advantage and set a trap.

-their attack is useless post 1942 except against undefended soft targets in open terrain

Recon are light units so finishing off units is appropriate. They are not tanks or heavy infantry. They are for Spotting, Trapping, Ambushing, and Cannon fodder.

-they take up space in your unit cap that could go do a unit that is combat effective

Try using them for the purposes suggested above and see if that helps.

[proline]

-they often die in one shot by post 1942 tanks or AT, especially if the latter are overstrengthed which is often, and even if they live they will surely die in two hits

My recons usually have two or three stars by 1942 which helps. They gain experience quickly. Recon is cannon fodder.

-the AI goes after them like a dog on a bone

Use that to your advantage and set a trap.

-their attack is useless post 1942 except against undefended soft targets in open terrain

Recon are light units so finishing off units is appropriate. They are not tanks or heavy infantry. They are for Spotting, Trapping, Ambushing, and Cannon fodder.

-they take up space in your unit cap that could go do a unit that is combat effective

Try using them for the purposes suggested above and see if that helps.

If you are trying to say that they are fine as is, I strongly disagree.

1) Experience does NOT stop recon from dying. A T34/43 with a strength of 13 can kill even 5 star recon unit in 1-2 hits, let alone the damage an IS-2, KV-85, or any late game AT can pump out.

2) There is no 'cannon fodder' in Panzer Corps when you are playing as the Germans. In order to win at the higher levels you cannot waste any prestige whatsoever and you need to deal damage cost-effectively, which is something recon does not do. Plus, using recon as fodder completely clashes with your first point about experience- once they die they are replaced with green units and it is very hard to get experience with green recon late game because there are very few safe targets for them to attack.

3) Yes, I know you can use recon to bait the AI. Personally, I try not to base my play around flaws in the AI because I consider that not fun, but even if you are going to do that you can bait with infantry or artillery just as effectively, and those units actually double as effective units.

4) Recon aren't actually that good at finishing off units. Any unit can finish off weak units, and there is nothing about recon that makes them any more effective at this role than anything else aside from their speed, which plenty of other units have too. If you want a fast unit that is actually adapted to finishing off the weak, get a PzII Flamm. They are not only quick but also have a great soft attack, ignore entrenchment, can handle close terrain decently, and have an astounding ROF of 14 that ensures that their enemy will die. Oh, and they destroy forts too.

5) Using them "for the purposes suggested above" does not justify their cap space. You are pretty much always better with an extra infantry or flamm if you are worried about the prestige cap, or an extra artillery, tank, or AT if you aren't.

I guess what bothers me about your post is the tone that I don't know how to use recon. That isn't the case. They were my favorite units in Panzer General and I have read every thread about how to get value from them and tried all the advice to make them work in PC. And yes, if I baby them enough I can keep them alive and find the odd use for them. That doesn't change the fact that when I play without them I win faster as I suspect most people would. It doesn't change the fact that recon are bad at their stated purpose, recon, because they have to stay with your army for protection. You simply can't use them to find the best path to victory objectives, spot counterattacks, etc. because they can't operate behind enemy lines.

[braccada]

You simply can't use them to find the best path to victory objectives, spot counterattacks, etc. because they can't operate behind enemy lines.

Maybe that is the point. Recon is about camouflage and speed. To make them able to oberate behind the lines, they could be invisible unless you run into them by chance (or get very close) or use another recon to detect them. Remove the ability to capture anything would be necessary. Very similar to submarines...

On the other hand that would make them really annoying, when they attack atillery from the back. Maybe that can be countered by reducing the attack strength.

However you are right recon is too weak.

[captainjack]

I rarely use recon except where I suspect mines, as they either detect the mines without setting it off, or I don't care much if they lose a point. But I agree that not losing the movement point for stopping on the way could make them much more attractive.

Since the hero-allocation gods always bless me with an abundance of spotting heroes, I usually can get by reasonably well without recon once I have Ronsdorf with his +2 spotting and a kradschutzen with +1 spotting, and artillery with +2 spotting (even as a Stug it's a bit of a wind-up having +2 on arty). I have tried giving Panzer 2s a recon move and upping the speed to 6, but they have such lousy combat stats it's only really useful as a way to get tank experience quickly (the P2 is so cheap, it gets experience very fast if it ever gets away). Maybe having an evasion skill would work - you could base it on experience 20% +20%/* to make experience worth collecting, with maybe a -10% penalty per -1Ini from mass attacks, or -20% for every subsequent evasion (since being surrounded should make it harder to get away).

Having said that, the Panhard armoured car is pretty useful in 1940 even with no evasion skills, although it is starting to get beaten up by experienced tanks now, and if I extend my scenarios into 1941, it will be completely outclassed.

As an alternative strategy, I once used Dwights Camo Sprayshop to turn my captured BA64 from Stalingrad bright yellow, on the basis that the Russians would never believe they'd just seen a bright yellow recon vehicle. It still got blown up, but it amused me for a few weeks.

[shawkhan2]

Would it not be simplest to just let Recon units have an additional +1 to spotting?

[proline]

Would it not be simplest to just let Recon units have an additional +1 to spotting?

It would certainly be worth a try. I guess one issue would be if it makes them too good in 1939-1941 when recon actually are decent. All of these options- evasion, taking away the recon move penalty, or adding +1 spotting- would be pretty small buffs that would be unlikely to break the game, so it would be nice to see at least one of them tried.

[rezaf]

As an alternative strategy, I once used Dwights Camo Sprayshop to turn my captured BA64 from Stalingrad bright yellow, on the basis that the Russians would never believe they'd just seen a bright yellow recon vehicle. It still got blown up, but it amused me for a few weeks.

Lol, thanks for sharing this little story. It's nice to know people find such weird uses for my little tool.

As for the topic at hand, taking away the penalty for partial movement might be a start, but I don't think it'd really make recon units more viable. Evasion would be too situational, as you MIGHT be lucky ... but you also might be unlucky, so you can't plan around / count on evasion.
My mechanical solution would probably be to have special rules for them, a bit like those for mines. Most units would only do a single point of damage to them and cause them to retreat immediately (if surrounded, they'd also surrender immediately). Their attack is basically useless anyhow, especially later in the war. If this proved to be problematic, they could just be switched to being unable to attack at all (with a passive attack value, like the air attack of bombers). Capturing cities could be disabled for them as well, but I think this shouldn't be much of an issue anyhow - when do you find an undefended city, especially in late war scenarios?

But at this point, it's pretty likely Rudankort won't make any more changes to PzC. I'm eagerly awaiting Armageddon to see how the engine has progressed in that game - chances are any developments might find their way into a possible PzC sequel...
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rezaf

[edahl1980]

Recon is overpowered early in the war. Late war they are where they are supposed to be.
They recon, deal with infantry and finish off damaged enemies.
Why change something that is working?

[BiteNibbleChomp]

when do you find an undefended city, especially in late war scenarios?

The France scenario in the vanilla campaign. There are 4 victory objectives that have no garrison. This is actually the only point in the game that I ever use recons - to get those VPs. (Buy a 232 at the start of the scenario, sell or suicide during Sealion40)

- BNC

[rezaf]

Recon is overpowered early in the war. Late war they are where they are supposed to be.
They recon, deal with infantry and finish off damaged enemies.
Why change something that is working?

Because we're talking about an entire unit category that most players won't bother with for the majority of the war when it was historically used and useful?
And, let's be honest, the chances of anything fundamental changing by this point are basically nil, so ... yeah, it's all just a little talking.

The France scenario in the vanilla campaign.

By "late war" I wasn't referring to France, but yeah, since you can cut the war short in the original campaign, maybe the definition >= 1942 would be better.
Doesn't change the point that this happens almost never, does it?
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rezaf

[edahl1980]

Recon is overpowered early in the war. Late war they are where they are supposed to be.
They recon, deal with infantry and finish off damaged enemies.
Why change something that is working?

Because we're talking about an entire unit category that most players won't bother with for the majority of the war when it was historically used and useful?
And, let's be honest, the chances of anything fundamental changing by this point are basically nil, so ... yeah, it's all just a little talking.

The France scenario in the vanilla campaign.

By "late war" I wasn't referring to France, but yeah, since you can cut the war short in the original campaign, maybe the definition >= 1942 would be better.
Doesn't change the point that this happens almost never, does it?
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rezaf

What do you want? Recon vehicles capable of handling T-34's and Sherman fireflies? Maybe an American greyhound beating up on tigers? Cause that didnt happen.
That players dont bother with recon is ok. I use them and love them. I move them up in front of my armor to clear the path, then move my armor up, and the recon moves back behind them. That is how i advancerapidly and avoid ambushes.
They can also cap flags and continue moving. 2-3 of them in 1942 and forward is certainly good to have.

[rezaf]

What do you want? Recon vehicles capable of handling T-34's and Sherman fireflies? Maybe an American greyhound beating up on tigers? Cause that didnt happen.

I wrote what I'd think is a good solution just a few posts above this one, so if you want the answer to that question, just re-read my post back up there.

But it's great that you find them useful even later in the war. It's entirely possible I'm just playing the game wrong or something - though a number of people seem to struggle finding recon units useful late-war.
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rezaf

[Aloo]

Give the player a slot or two dedicated only for recon. This way they don't waste a full value slot, but get to play with recon units.

[edahl1980]

What do you want? Recon vehicles capable of handling T-34's and Sherman fireflies? Maybe an American greyhound beating up on tigers? Cause that didnt happen.

I wrote what I'd think is a good solution just a few posts above this one, so if you want the answer to that question, just re-read my post back up there.

But it's great that you find them useful even later in the war. It's entirely possible I'm just playing the game wrong or something - though a number of people seem to struggle finding recon units useful late-war.
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rezaf

If you dont find them usefull, dont use them.
I dont find towed AT units usefull and i dont use them.

[bebro]

But at this point, it's pretty likely Rudankort won't make any more changes to PzC. I'm eagerly awaiting Armageddon to see how the engine has progressed in that game - chances are any developments might find their way into a possible PzC sequel...

'Fcourse I dunno what they have in mind for the future, but I hope there's some improvements coming with Soviet Corps.

[rezaf]

If you dont find them usefull, dont use them.
I dont find towed AT units usefull and i dont use them.

Well, of course you're right. Then again, following that logic - if you feel discussing about possible improvements to the recon class is unneccessary, don't post in a thread titles "Improvement to Recon"?

'Fcourse I dunno what they have in mind for the future, but I hope there's some improvements coming with Soviet Corps.

Maybe you're right bebro, but I think in the thread for ideas for soviet units they said something to the effect that only stuff already doable with the game as-is will be considered, which in turn means significant changes are probably not in the cards.
Armageddon clearly has taken the front seat for now, and post release it will require support and tweaking, and they already said they want to build up on it with expansions if it's successful...
Rudankort is just one guy and his time is limited.
He should take an apprentice and teach him the arcane secrets of his engine.
Do you have anything planned for the immediate future bebro?
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rezaf