Fornovo-Italian gendarmes

[GaiusMarius]

Hi,

Bought yesterday night the game and taken a very fast look on it. I went through the Fornovo scen finding a possible bug (or anyway something I was not able to completely understand).

In the force selection screen (good or bad idea, don't want to open a discussion on it), I've chosen two unit of Italian Gendarmes, reported (quite reasonably indeed) as heavy lancers. to my surprise, once entered in the battle I found that all Italian Gendarmes units are reported as light lancers (the ones I've choosen and the already present in the OOB).

Is it wanted or an oversight?

cheers

[rbodleyscott]

They are tweaked in the scenario script to change them to light lancers. This was supposed to be a factor in their allegedly poor performance in that particular battle.

They are graded as heavy lancers in all other scenarios, and unfortunately the force selection screen appears earlier in the program sequence than the customisation code, so reports them as their vanilla grading as heavy lancers prior to the customisation code switching them to light.

[GaiusMarius]

Hi,

clear enough and thanks for the real time answer

Was only wondering if would have been a better scenario design solution to grade them as raw troops and maintaining their historical weapons but I think the effect could have been roughly the same so I'm overall satisfied with the answer.

cheers

[rbodleyscott]

Hi,

clear enough and thanks for the real time answer

Was only wondering if would have been a better scenario design solution to grade them as raw troops and maintaining their historical weapons but I think the effect could have been roughly the same so I'm overall satisfied with the answer.

Historically their lances were light in this battle.

From the memoirs of Philip de Commines:

"Hard by us fled a troupe of thirtie men of armes, whom we let passe quietly fearing to assaile
them. When we had breathed our horses, we ridde foorth a
fast trot towards the King, not knowing what was become of
him, but after a while we descried him a far off. Then
caused we our servants to light on foote, and gather up the
launces wherewith the place lay strawed, especially with
Bourdonasses, which were not much woorth, for they were
hollowe and hardly so waightie as a javelin, but trimly painted."

[fogman]

This is a rather bold interpretation. The 'bourdonasses' were lighter lances used for jousting and were meant to break on impact to protect the participants (ironically a fragment hit king Henry II's eye and subsequently killed him in 1559).

Alessandro Beneditti (whose account of Fornovo can be googled), who was an eye-witness, did not mention that the italian men-at-arms went to battle with such weapons, something that would be extraordinary and incomprehensible as there is no logical basis for them to do so. As a matter of fact Beneditti seemed to imply the French were handicapped by their weapon: "A great many French fell and perished at the first onrush, for they carry shorter javelins, wherefore they felt the first blows; however, the French seemed better suited to the sword, for as it is shorter, it is on that account considered better."

My feeling is that the bourdonasses captured by the French servants were abandoned by the Italian servants (as gendarmes usually had servants), not a sign that they were the weapon used by their masters during the battle.

[rbodleyscott]

My feeling is that the bourdonasses captured by the French servants were abandoned by the Italian servants (as gendarmes usually had servants), not a sign that they were the weapon used by their masters during the battle.

Conceivably, but then why did Philip de Commines, also an eye-witness, bother to mention them? I am well aware that this type of lance was usually used for jousting, but so of course was Philip de Commines.

Why would Italian jousting equipment be strewn all over the battlefield, given that the Italian camp was way behind the area fought over?

The implication is that, for whatever reason, many of the Italian men-at-arms rode into battle with lances that were more decorative than effective.

Given the somewhat stylized nature of condottieri warfare, is that so inconceivable?

You are of course entitled to your own interpretation, but I don't think it is fair (except as rhetoric) to describe our interpretation as "bold".

[fogman]

Aside from Beneditti, contemporary commenters who had access to combattants, like Guicciardini and Machiavelli, never claimed that the Italian men-at-arms went into the fighting with decorative weapons, something they would not have failed to notice.

I read extensively the Fornovo literature (including the most complete study on the battle, by Antonio Santosuosso ("Anatomy of Defeat in Renaissance Italy: the Battle of Fornovo", the International Jounal of History Review, May 1994) when i researched the battle for FoG and this is the first time I've seen anyone making the claim.

So correct me if i'm wrong but you are basically the only one making this claim in 500 years. This is very bold.

[nikgaukroger]

I'm sure you can edit the scenario to give them Heavy Lances if you'd prefer - and others who'd like it that way could download it as well. All can be happy

FWIW having played and won Fornovo (on SMG setting) I was happy with the feel of the scenario as it stands - I doubt changing the lance classification of the Italians would have altered the game.