Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.4

[hugh2711]

longshanks; I found that when using the black sea route; when taking the two soviet oil fields, the first one does fight back and the second one does trigger a large counter attack including t43/85, some of the siberian produced stuff diverts there instead of going to the main front. Also when taking iceland early on (with two infantry from northern norway) some ships do try to stop/interfere however by sending/keeping your condor up there and sending another one they are kept at bay.
It would be useful to actually have an accessable port in iceland.

[Longshanks]

Hugh,

Yup, but I didn't go for the Baku or Grozny fields, as they are heavily garrisoned with pre-placed troops. I went south instead. Nice to hear what happens though.

I went into Iceland with an arty, a Mt. and two inf, as I expected a fight that would require a defense. I eventually pulled them all out but 1 Inf. The port is accessible if you temporarily go into turbo units mode, btw.

[McGuba]

Y

I have checked the manual and the in game library, but I cannot found the exact effect of partisan and what precisely trigger the pp penalty. I think partisan units reduce pp by 50 to a max of 150. I'm not sure if the partisan unit needs to be adjacent to a rail line or to a axis flag to cause a -50pp penalty.

Certain parts of the railway lines are designated as an AI zone and if there are 1-3 or more partisan units on those hexes at the beginning of the Axis turn the player gets 50-150 pp penalty. Partisan units only adjacent to railway lines do not cause penalty.

However, maybe it might be better to get the penalty at the end of the Axis turn as it happens with the strategic bombers, so that there would be some time given to destroy the partisan unit to avoid getting the penalty. And at the beginning of the Axis turn there would only be a warning message: "Partisans are disrupting our railway lines... locate and destroy them or you will get a pp penalty at the end of the turn!"

Also: what are the terrain values ( i.e. base entrenchment and initiative cap) of an oil field?

Oil fields are swamp (marsh) hexes i.e. close terrain. I will add this information in brackets after the oil filed string.

I'm very impressed with the way you are handling the various issues that testers come up with. Here's another for you to consider. Very early in the game, I sent an invasion fleet (and airborne troops) of about 10 units from Romania to the Turkish border area, landing two units at a time to avoid spotting from nearby Russian units. The whole army was landed and advanced eastwards down the valleys, taking Tibilsi, Yerevan, and Tabriz along the way to Iraq (which was the destination). Had to fight a few Russian units next to the rail line, but NONE OF THE REST RESPONDED. This is the problem I think. Whether the Axis could have pulled off such an invasion is unknown, but having done it, I'm quite sure the Soviets would have reacted with whatever they had in the region and would have drafted emergency units like they did in 42 when the Germans approached.

I subsequently walked into Iraq, attacked and took Kirkuk and none of the units in Iraq responded. I know those units are pre-placed and aren't necessarily really there yet, but something would have been, especially after the Allies knew of the invasion of southern Russia.

When I first made this mod I wanted to simulate the main historical events and those which were seriously planned, but eventually postponed indefinitely like Sealion or the invasion of Malta. I think these are well modelled now, and if the player moves along a more or less historical path the AI will respond in a more or less historical way as well. It was not until the latest 1.3-1.4 versions that I had started to prepare the AI to response somewhat better for such extremes as you described.

However, there is a more important technical aspect: the game only allows the use of 32 AI zones and all the events, AI triggers, prestige award calculations are governed by these limited number of AI zones. Which is a great restriction if you think of all the historical events and possible playing strategies. Therefore, for example if I want the AI to respond to the Axis invasion of Iceland I have to assign an AI zone to Iceland, but all the AI zones are used by other, more important objectives by now. Thus I could only do it by removing the AI zone from Moscow or Malta for example and assign it to Iceland, which is not the way, obviously.

So while it would indeed be nice to have even more triggers, we have reached the limits of the current game engine, I am afraid. All I can do is to increase the number of enemy units defending these areas like Iceland, Black Sea and such. On the other hand I do not want to completely close the way of unhistorical experimenting, I just want to make it more challenging.

Anyway, in v1.5 there will be some more AI responses where I have AI zones assigned already, for example in the Middle East. Many thanks for your feedback.

[McGuba]

Also when taking iceland early on (with two infantry from northern norway) some ships do try to stop/interfere however by sending/keeping your condor up there and sending another one they are kept at bay.
It would be useful to actually have an accessable port in iceland.

Some British ships (and aircraft, too, after a while, if I remember well) are set to patrol the Northern passes. It is highly possible that in one test play you can cross it unnoticed while in another your task force is discovered, and if so the the lone Brit destroyer will "call" other nearby units to assist.

[Delta66]

@ McGuba,

Thanks for the clarification about partisans effect.
I think that it would be a good idea to assess the penalty at the end of the German game turn.

[McGuba]

Now I am thinking about a little change in the upgrade system. During all my test plays I had a tendency to upgrade those obsolete Pz.I-II and Pz.35-38 tanks to Pz IV, knowing that the Pz.III is a dead end and would become obsolete by early 1943. So it is better to jump it over and to upgrade most of those obsolete tanks to the Pz.IV which is more versatile and can be used until the end of the war. And just leave some of the others behind and wait until the Panther becomes available. Which leads to an unhistorically large number of Pz.IVs early on, and having Pz.IIIs in the army until the end.

As I understand, in 1941-1942 there were about 2-3 times more Pz.IIIs than Pz.IVs, in 1943, especially in the battle of Kursk, there were about the same number of Pz.III and Pz.IV with a smaller number of Panthers and Tigers and in 1944-45 there were about the same number of Panthers and Pz.IVs, with the Pz.IIIs withdrawn and rebuilt to StuG or relegated to training.

So I came up with this family upgrade change in which the Panzer III and the Panther would be in the same family so that the Pz.III would no longer be a dead end and thus it would worth upgrading a few of those obsolete tanks to it, while increasing the number of Pz.IVs as well so that it can fill the gap until the Panther becomes available. And the Pz.IV, especially the latest J version would remain to be an affordable, cheap to maintain, and good enough tank until the end.

As the Pz.III M/N currently costs 424 pp in the mod and the early Panther costs 978 it would still be quite an expensive upgrade, but much much less of a burden during the hard months of mid 1943. Then, as the later versions of the Panther becomes less and less expensive (thanks to its mass production), all of the Pz.IIIs could be upgraded to it, as historically.

As a compensation (there is always a compensation to keep the existing balance of the mod) for the cheaper upgrades I would reduce the prestige awarded for the capture of those major objectives from 1500 pp to 1000. In this way those who are not doing so well could also benefit from the cheaper upgrades, and those who do, would not get too far ahead.

Obviously, there would be a message telling this when the Panther becomes available.

[Delta66]

Actually the all Pz IV strategy is a central feature of most Panzer Corps campaigns, it's kind of the hallmark of the serie.

Making the Pz III upgradable, in family, to Panther, would be a very good idea.
In 1941 the Pz III was used mostly for attacking enemy tanks, and the Pz IV was used for support fire. This lasted until the long barreled 75 mm gun was available for the Pz IV. Yet as you mentioned Pz III were still numerous even in 1943. As the Panther was clearly designed for tank vs tank combat in view of the poor performance of the Pz III/IV vs the heavier Russian tanks, this make sense both from an historical perspective and from the gameplay point of view too.

BTW playing in Rommel difficulty you could not afford to upgrade all your tanks to Pz IV, nor to upgrade all minor infantry to Bersaglieri or Mountain troops. Which gives a good historical feeling.

[Uhu]

On Rommel difficulty in March 1943, I have 3x Pz IVG's (two upgraded from short barell version) and 3x Pz IIIL's, so, for me, history is accurately modelled. I can afford Panthers mostly only in July 1944, when the G version is available and I have the prestige for 1 or 2.

BTW playing in Rommel difficulty you could not afford to upgrade all your tanks to Pz IV, nor to upgrade all minor infantry to Bersaglieri or Mountain troops. Which gives a good historical feeling.

[McGuba]

On Rommel difficulty in March 1943, I have 3x Pz IVG's (two upgraded from short barell version) and 3x Pz IIIL's, so, for me, history is accurately modelled. I can afford Panthers mostly only in July 1944, when the G version is available and I have the prestige for 1 or 2.

That's the problem: historically there were some 200 Panthers at Kursk, so the first such unit should be there at that time. And from July 1944 there should not be any more Pz.IIIs in the frontline, all being replaced by Panthers.

I only played on General, and while I had more prestige, in 1944-45 I could not replace all my Pz.IIIs with Panthers. Partly because of the lack of prestige, and partly because I tended to keep the existing Pz.IIIs for secondary roles and purchased brand new Panthers as I had lots of free core slots due to the previous losses. Now, with the Pz.III and Panther being in the same family for the price of one new Panther I could upgrade two Pz.IIIs to it which is a much better deal I guess. And also a lot more accurate historically.

The coming v1.5 is getting even more challenging than the previous versions, anyway, with less Italian units early on and even more Western Allied aircraft attacking the continent, so I tend to give some compensation to the player to make it fair and to keep the balance
.

[Uhu]

I would reduce the major awards: the defeat of one of the Allies, or capturing England, etc. - not the minor ones. While the benefit for cheaper Panthers comes only at the mid-late stage of the war, the minor awards can be reached early-mid. On the other hand, the prestige for awards will be sold not for tanks mostly, but for airforce prior and maybe for some arty upgrade.

for the cheaper upgrades I would reduce the prestige awarded for the capture of those major objectives from 1500 pp to 1000.

[Uhu]

A question: what trigger cancel Overlord? If several Axis units enter the British Island? It would be logical.

[McGuba]

I would reduce the major awards: the defeat of one of the Allies, or capturing England, etc. - not the minor ones. While the benefit for cheaper Panthers comes only at the mid-late stage of the war, the minor awards can be reached early-mid. On the other hand, the prestige for awards will be sold not for tanks mostly, but for airforce prior and maybe for some arty upgrade.

for the cheaper upgrades I would reduce the prestige awarded for the capture of those major objectives from 1500 pp to 1000.

True. So I have reduced the award given for completely defeating the Allies.

A question: what trigger cancel Overlord? If several Axis units enter the British Island? It would be logical.

Then it would be a little too easy to cancel it. The player has to capture at least one victory objective in England. Which requires a serious invasion attempt.

Oh, and

After I hit Iceland, there was no Allied reaction.

now I found a way so that the US will attempt to recapture it after some point.

[Delta66]

I would reduce the major awards: the defeat of one of the Allies, or capturing England, etc. - not the minor ones. While the benefit for cheaper Panthers comes only at the mid-late stage of the war, the minor awards can be reached early-mid. On the other hand, the prestige for awards will be sold not for tanks mostly, but for airforce prior and maybe for some arty upgrade.

for the cheaper upgrades I would reduce the prestige awarded for the capture of those major objectives from 1500 pp to 1000.

I agree with Uhu here.
First I clearly understand that the mod is supposed to be played in General or FM difficulty, so I don't want to appear to be complaining because I play in Rommel. However here is my experience with the mod.

First i played a couple of games with 1.3 in FM, the first one was more to get a feel for the mod midway through I realized that I make plenty of errors about the mod's specific rules, so I restarted a new game , then I get a DV on turn 98.
As I saw plenty of thing s to improve in my strategy and tactics. I decided to try 1.4 in Rommel difficulty. Somehow I captured Leningrad Moscow and Stalingrad roughly 6 months sooner than in 1.3 FM, and Malta and Gibraltar even faster. This although in Rommel my force was significantly weaker. In Rommel you hardly get enough pp by regular way to improve your units. per turn pp is mostly spent on replacing losses, and I mostly purchased new hardware like Fw 190 or Pz IV after capturing a key objective like Leningrad or Malta with the extra pp bonus. I thing I made good progress by the end of 1942 having conquered most of the soviet union and fighting around Baku and far behind Moscow. Yet without the special event I see no way to keep my equipment up to date with those of the allies that regularly field improved equipments. For example If I cannot crush the Soviet Union quickly I wouldn't be able to match T34-43 or IS tanks, and same for the planes. However, although I significantly improved my strategy I think there is still room for improvement. In particular In my last game in Rommel I upgraded most Germans infantry that start at strength 5 in Germany to Grenadier, which took 2 turns . one to repair them up to strength 10 and another one to upgrade from Infantry to Grenadier. I think this was an error, as i didn't had enough pp to buy them transport. they reached the front a bit too lately and my panzer lacked infantry support. In retrospect, I think it would be more efficient to sent them directly to the front line as regular Infantry gaining one turn in movement, moreover early on the front move so fast that 3 movement points is much better than 2 then when the front is more or less stabilized I could upgrade them as needed.

From my point of view reducing the award for special objectives from 1500 to 1000 pp would have a very big impact on Rommel, whereas I don't care much about it if playing in FM as I would have much more pp than in Rommel anyway. The reason I play in Rommel is first because I get a DV in FM, so it is quite natural to try the next difficulty level. And second with the tighter pp it prevent using many unhistorical force built like upgrading all minor with their best equipment and same for the Germans.

Thanks for your work anyway. The mod is really great and keeps improving.

[Uhu]

A question: what trigger cancel Overlord? If several Axis units enter the British Island? It would be logical.

Then it would be a little too easy to cancel it. The player has to capture at least one victory objective in England. Which requires a serious invasion attempt.

That sounds fair to me. Well, I started from the "changing point" save to try another historical start - this time with the attempt to defeat the Brits too. Therefore I left now the capture of the Oil fields and focused capturing Leningrad and Moscow.
To initiate after the the invasion of Britain!
Although it is April 1944 and I don't see any opportunity to make it before D-day, what I hoped. Still I hope, when in the meantime I can defeat the Soviets and capture the Middle East with the part of my ex-Tunisian force, I will have enough time in 1945 to capture England just before the end.

After I hit Iceland, there was no Allied reaction.

Oh, and now I found a way so that the US will attempt to recapture it after some point.[/quote]
The question is, does Iceland really a big value for the Axis? I captured it too in 1943, but I think, in this time, it makes no difference. Capturing early it can make a difference to decimate the destoryers and so collect a lot of prestige with the subs.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

The question is, does Iceland really a big value for the Axis? I captured it too in 1943, but I think, in this time, it makes no difference. Capturing early it can make a difference to decimate the destoryers and so collect a lot of prestige with the subs.

If you take Iceland in '41 with paras, you might get to remove lots of Allied armies?

- BNC

[Uhu]

I don't think so. It would be information about that in the mod. On the other hand, it is quite easy to take - if the capture would make such a major effect, than the siege would be much harder.

The question is, does Iceland really a big value for the Axis? I captured it too in 1943, but I think, in this time, it makes no difference. Capturing early it can make a difference to decimate the destoryers and so collect a lot of prestige with the subs.

If you take Iceland in '41 with paras, you might get to remove lots of Allied armies?

- BNC

[McGuba]

From my point of view reducing the award for special objectives from 1500 to 1000 pp would have a very big impact on Rommel

No worries, I already agreed on not to reduce the pp award for taking the major objectives like Moscow, Leningrad, etc. However, I do reduce the one given for completely defeating the USSR or the British from 3000 to 2000. In this case the real reward is not really the prestige itself, but the fact that the player can deploy all of his forces against the other main adversary, which is a great advantage.

without the special event I see no way to keep my equipment up to date with those of the allies that regularly field improved equipments. For example If I cannot crush the Soviet Union quickly I wouldn't be able to match T34-43 or IS tanks, and same for the planes.

That's another point to place the Pz.III and the Panther in the same upgrade family. I would like to keep the mod playable for those who are not doing so well and/or playing in a more historical way and/or playing on Rommel. And after all the Germans could not crush the USSR and still they were able to ugrade to much better tanks in the second half of the war. Even in limited numbers, compared to the Allies.

In particular In my last game in Rommel I upgraded most Germans infantry that start at strength 5 in Germany to Grenadier

I also do not think that it is a good idea to upgrade too many inf to grenadiers. They are good in defense, but not so good in attack, unless carried by halftracks, which on the other hand makes them very expensive to maintain. So I usually had just a few of these, mostly the best ones with good heroes, and used the rest for defense or limited attacks. However, they might be good in Sealion where they do not have to move as long distances as in the east.

The question is, does Iceland really a big value for the Axis?

Historically it was much more valuable for the Allies as they could use it as a base for the large long range anti-submarine aircraft like the B-17 as these could not use carriers. From Iceland these could reach most of the Atlantic Ocean leaving just a small gap which was later filled by using aircraft carriers. And it is pretty much like this in the mod as well, the Allied aircraft patroling the convoy routes can refuel here so that they can spend more time patroling.

If you take Iceland in '41 with paras, you might get to remove lots of Allied armies?

None, really. Basically you just deny those patrol aircraft from using it, and gain an airfield from where you can support the Battle of Atlantic. It is quite a big advantage though, and from a historcial point of view I am sure the US would have tried to take it back before D-day. That's why I agreed with Longshanks and make the US try to recapture it in v1.5.

[Uhu]

I also do not think that it is a good idea to upgrade too many inf to grenadiers. They are good in defense, but not so good in attack, unless carried by halftracks, which on the other hand makes them very expensive to maintain.

I would name it almost suicidical on Rommel to doing this. You have to spend the few prestige for so many other thing: airforce (!), armor, arty upgrades. There are more than enough infantry in the game (at least in the first years - but also later, if you have handled them well), they can do whatever infantry tasks there are, so no need to make them more effective. I mostly also do not have the prestige to upgrade all inf to 1944 standards (on Rommel, on historical version).

[Uhu]

Interesting, how this mod affects the view for the classic PzC scenarios. I thought, I start to play the "Berin, last stand" scenario with the original settings - just for fun. But already, after the first turn, I cancelled it, because it was so far from historical accuracy.

[McGuba]

If we are at historical accuracy I noticed that the German "Schnellboote" unit is wrongly depicted in the game, IMO. Historically it was a fast motor boat armed with only 2-4 torpedoes and 1-2 MGs and was mainly used against merchant ships, destroyers and other smaller ships. However, in the game these are pretty much small destroyers with the ability to attack submarines, even though historically they had no depth charges or sonar and in WW2 they sank only one submarine (most likely caught on the surface).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-boat

So now I am thinking about moving these small ships to the recon class which would only give them surface attack, but recon movement which would nicely simulate their trade mark hit-and-run attacks and would also make them a good unit to scout enemy shores and naval minefields (thanks to their wooden hull magnetic mines could not hurt them).

However, players probably got used to their unhistorical anti-submarine capability in PzC which would lead to some confusion or frustration at first.

I also do not really understand why this particular unit is named in German Schnellboote, and the other ships types are not. Either this one should be named in English E-boat, or the others should be named in German, too. Thus Destroyer should be Zerstörer and Battleship should be Schlachtschiff. Or maybe as a compromise it could be S-boot. But it might be just nitpicking...