Rear support

David · Post by **David** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:34 pm

Newbie question from tonights game:

2 pike blocks of 12 (average) with 6 MF archers (average) behind both blocks in a single rank. Can the archers support both pike blocks for cohesion tests?

Dave

carlos · Post by **carlos** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:53 pm

Yes if all 6 MF are behind both pike blocks, i.e. they have to be in a single file, not single rank.

David · Post by **David** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:04 am

Thanks Carlos

From memory the issue arose because the rules refer to a unit of the same grade and at least half the base size being at least partly behind the unit to be supported.

I think the wording is a bit ambiguous - if you are correct it certainly makes it harder to give rear support to Pikes for example than single ranked cavalry.

Dave

carlos · Post by **carlos** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:14 am

I don't think the wording is ambiguous. It states that it's the number of bases behind, not the size of the BG behind. "The number of such bases at least partly directly to the battle group’s rear must be at least half the original total number of bases in the supported battle group." Pretty clear. Being in a single file behind also makes it easier for the troops in front to avoid them if they rout.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:48 am

The key is the definition of rear support which is in the glossary on P135.

All that matters is that there are half as many bases as the initial size of the supported BG of a good enough quality directly behind the supported BG and that the supported BG is infront of all of those bases. The supporting bases could come from more than one BG.

miffedofreading · Post by **miffedofreading** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:58 am

Hammy an early response to this post said it was alright to have a 6 base BG in a single wide column half way between the two BG's and this would count? Is that true?

I had been assuming you could only count the first 3 ranks, not all 6.

Andy

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:12 pm

miffedofreading wrote:Hammy an early response to this post said it was alright to have a 6 base BG in a single wide column half way between the two BG's and this would count? Is that true?

I had been assuming you could only count the first 3 ranks, not all 6.

Andy

A single column of six bases would be fine for rear support in this case. As long as all the bases are within support range and they are behind the supported BG etc. it is fine.

The only place where you ignore ranks after the first three is for calculating 1HP3B and 1HP2B.

miffedofreading · Post by **miffedofreading** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:40 pm

OK, that is a very useful trick then. For my carthaginians I was trying to work out how to shore up my feeble gaul BG's.

12 base BG, it has been suggested field them in ranks of 5-5-2 rather than 6-6

I could field a 2nd rate ligurian BG with 6 bases behind the join in 2 12 base warbands, providing rear support for 24 bases of Gauls with just 30 points of rubbish ligurians? I can't think of any other use for light spear armed foot.

Andy

carlos · Post by **carlos** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:25 pm

As long as they are the same quality, they are fine as rear supporters. It's also a fine use for rubbish cavalry, like unprotected indian cavalry.

miffedofreading · Post by **miffedofreading** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:27 pm

One of the problems with the Gauls is they are all protected average. The only good part of this is that any cheap average troops can give them rear support.

Don't get much cheaper than light spear ligurians at only 5 points.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:17 pm

Sounds like a plan to me...

domblas · Post by **domblas** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:41 am

for rear support purpose why can't we consider elephants can have better value? for exemple counting as 2 bases equivalent per base (as in HP xbase system) or count as better quality as average.

Having friendly elephants in support behind u must makes u feel stronger, isn't it? Except if they charge trough u

carlos · Post by **carlos** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:22 am

If I were a soldier I'd rather be as far away from the elephants as possible.

domblas · Post by **domblas** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:15 am

it seems that asian had greater level of control on their elephants than occidentals (carthaginians, romans, moors etc...) and that their presence was considered as a bonus rather than a fear

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:41 pm

it seems that asian had greater level of control on their elephants than occidentals (carthaginians, romans, moors etc...) and that their presence was considered as a bonus rather than a fear

I'd still rather not have a war-elephant standing behind me.

They'll be fine .... honest ...... honest ..... squelch!

WhiteKnight · Post by **WhiteKnight** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:03 pm

But can elephants not provide rear support to 4-base BGs if appropriately positionned? Value in an elephant column to support 2x4 base BGs?

Or more likely, add to the count of required bases for supporting a larger bg in front of them?

Expensive rear support but it does protect vulnerable 2-base BGs from danger early in a battle!

Martin

WhiteKnight · Post by **WhiteKnight** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:03 pm

But can elephants not provide rear support to 4-base BGs if appropriately positionned? Value in an elephant column to support 2x4 base BGs?

Or more likely, add to the count of required bases for supporting a larger bg in front of them?

Expensive rear support but it does protect vulnerable 2-base BGs from danger early in a battle!

Martin

carlos · Post by **carlos** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:46 pm

Elephants still count for rear support but aren't that effective at it since there are so little of them.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:53 pm

terrys wrote:
it seems that asian had greater level of control on their elephants than occidentals (carthaginians, romans, moors etc...) and that their presence was considered as a bonus rather than a fear
I'd still rather not have a war-elephant standing behind me.

They'll be fine .... honest ...... honest ..... squelch!

We thought about this when a commander (depicted ona horse) decided to fight in the front rank of an elephant BG. "I'll just position myself between this charging elephant and its target in order to encourage it...."