Advice on Carthaginians

[whslions]

I'm picking up the rules and possibly some minis tommorow any advice from someone with experience on how I should build my army. feel free to use game terminology because by the time I read your replies I'll have the rules and the list.

I am somewhat familiar with DBM, and very familiar with DBA and that is basically my experience in ancients gaming. I want to build Carthaginians because I'm a painter first, like the look and I think I have the best selection of quality miniatures that work for me.

Anyways, my gaming style has always been to use mobility and maneuver to achieve local superiority against weak spots and overwhelm them (kinda hard to do in DBA) with brute force. I like fast and bloody. Keeping that in mind, what kind of mix should I be looking for.

I haven't seen the lists yet, but would it be reasonable to have something like 50% cavalry, maybe two units of heavy veteran foot and the rest Celts, Spaniards etc.? How many missile armed units is adequate? Is the later Carthaginian "in Italy" list, representative of a tough veteran force such as Hannibal had at Cannae?

[Brainsnaffler]

Well, I am no expert but I can perhaps offer some small advice.

First up, the lists (I believe) are designed to reflect a realistic representation of the army's so there is a limit to how many battle groups of cavalry you can have in your army as opposed to having a complete mounted army when in reality the Carthaginians were not. Having said that, there is a lot of flexibility as you can have upto 12 bases of Galic or Spanish Cavalry, 12 bases of numidian cavalry, 4 bases of Libyphoenician cavalry and 4 bases of Lucanian / Burttian cavalry. This is probably more points than you will be fielding and you will want something more. Therefore, I would think that a combination of Spanish, Galic and Numidian cavalry are good enough.

The good thing about the numidians is that they are light and very maneouverable so you could easily soften up areas with them - the obvious disadvantage is that they are unarmoured and shouldn't be used in any melee or charges.

Elephants are ok (especially against enemy horses), but at this point, I don't know if I personally see them as worth it because they are very cumbersome and slow, with not many bases to them so they will not take much killing before they are useless. I need to play with them more to make my mind up.

In terms of foot, it depends on your strategy as to what troops you take. Gallic warriors are good at charging, but they don't have as good skills in melee and are therefore not so good at prelonged fighting. African Spearmen are not as good at charging, but are slightly more advantageous in melee and they are drilled. Ultimately, it depends if your in it for the hard slog or want to soften the enemy up and hope to break them with the charge.

Hope this has given you some ideas

[shall]

My list exists on the AAR stream ... see Later Carthagians vs Medieval Germans

Might give you some ideas.

Si

[Probert]

Later Carthage is also the first army I am building (my first ancients army ever).

I decided to start with the basic/required elements first: Spanish Medium Horse, Spanish Light Horse, Numidian Light Horse, Veteran Lybian Infantry and Numidian Light Infantry.

This gives a mobile force with a small tough core (probably not tough enough).

After I get the basics painted up I plan on adding Liby-Phonecian/Poeni cavalry and much more infantry.

[ethan]

Infantry is much more maneuverable and faster than you might think, especially drilled troops.

[whslions]

If on one of my Cavalry wings I went for two BGs of say 6 numidian elements and 1 BG og 4 Liby Phoenician Heavies do you think the Numidians can do a good enough job softening up enemy heavy cavalry enough for the heavies to charge in and mop up or can they do a good enough job of drawing the opposings heavies off and exposing the Infantry?

[rbodleyscott]

If on one of my Cavalry wings I went for two BGs of say 6 numidian elements and 1 BG og 4 Liby Phoenician Heavies do you think the Numidians can do a good enough job softening up enemy heavy cavalry enough for the heavies to charge in and mop up or can they do a good enough job of drawing the opposings heavies off and exposing the Infantry?

Against Romans yes. Against other armies, it entirely depends what mounted troops they have themselves.

[BillMc]

Elephants can still be very useful, you just have to rethink how they are used. Dont lead with them. I have found that looking back at some of the ways the Carthos actually used them to be very useful - check out the battle of Trebia.

[Brainsnaffler]

"do you think the Numidians can do a good enough job softening up enemy heavy cavalry enough for the heavies to charge in and mop up or can they do a good enough job of drawing the opposings heavies off and exposing the Infantry?"

Naturally, you have to take into account the enemy cavalry, but I personally would use the numidians against the infantry because they are more likely to survive longer as they move faster and are more flexible than the typical heavy infantry and so will usually outrun them on evades. On the other hand, you may find a group of Numidian foot to be just as effective at outrunning heavy inf.

[whslions]

Elephants can still be very useful, you just have to rethink how they are used. Dont lead with them. I have found that looking back at some of the ways the Carthos actually used them to be very useful - check out the battle of Trebia.

No Elephants...my army is from the Cannae period because I like how the lybi phonecian vets look with the mixed equipment cool

[whslions]

"do you think the Numidians can do a good enough job softening up enemy heavy cavalry enough for the heavies to charge in and mop up or can they do a good enough job of drawing the opposings heavies off and exposing the Infantry?"

Naturally, you have to take into account the enemy cavalry, but I personally would use the numidians against the infantry because they are more likely to survive longer as they move faster and are more flexible than the typical heavy infantry and so will usually outrun them on evades. On the other hand, you may find a group of Numidian foot to be just as effective at outrunning heavy inf.

Basically I want to be able to remove any enemy cavalry on the flanks so that the Sacred Band would be free to threaten the flanks of the Infantry line...sorta how you'd use light horse in DBM

[Montagu]

From my limited experience, I'd say that LH is good at distracting the enemy cav but not that great at hurting it. You need 3 hits to even make the enemy BG do a death roll and then it's only 1/6 chance per hit above 2. In 3 games, I've had no kills from ANY of my missile troops of 8 LF and 6 LH and only 1 cohesion test. I guess if you have a big superiority in cav you could use the numidians to lure a unit into exposing a flank or use them to flank when you have a unit stuck in combat.

So if you want to do damage with cav on the wings you want armored cav. You can max armored by taking Libyphonecian besides the 4 allowed under Gallic/Spanish.

I am a huge fan of Hannibal so am glad to see people playing his armies.

[Brainsnaffler]

As Montagu suggested, perhaps you could use some gallic cavalry to draw them off and then you could use the numidian cavalry to hit them in the flank / rear for the ++ POA. This would leave your sacred band to take on the flanks.

[lordmarc7]

Hi.

I just put together a Carthiginian list and I wondered what everyone's thoughts were?

CinC IC
2 Sub-general TC
4 Gallic cavalry Cv, Protected, Superior, Undrilled, Light Spear, Swordsmen
4 Gallic cavalry Cv, Protected, Superior, Undrilled, Light Spear, Swordsmen
4 Numidian light cavalry LH, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
4 Numidian light cavalry LH, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
8 Spanish Javelinmen LF, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
6 Spanish Javelinmen LF, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
8 African Spearmen HF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Offensive Spear
8 African Spearmen HF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Offensive Spear
8 Campanian Hoplites HF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Offensive Spear
8 Gallic foot MF, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
8 Gallic foot MF, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
8 Gallic foot MF, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
2 Elephants Average, Undrilled
6 Balearic Slingers LF Unprotected, Superior, Undrilled, Sling

[malekithau]

Upgrade one Gallic cav unit to armoured. Think about fielding the Gauls as HF. Make one unit of Gauls Spanish scutarii possibly drilled. My 800 point Carthagimnian army has 15-16 BGs dependent on make up with a Hannibal in Africa version with 14 BGs. My units tend to be 6 strong for Scutarii and spears. Max your skirmishers - contrary to what you may read they can be very important to your eventual victory. You need as many good quality cav as you can get.

[lordmarc7]

What would be the advantage of the gauls as HF? The 3 OS BGs are intended to hold open terrain with the gauls pushing through rough terrain. I was thinking about the armoured cav and the scutarii. I just can't seem to max out on the LF. Here is my revised list:

CinC IC
2 Sub-general TC
4 Gallic cavalry Cv, Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Light Spear, Swordsmen
4 Gallic cavalry Cv, Protected, Superior, Undrilled, Light Spear, Swordsmen
4 Numidian light cavalry LH, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
4 Numidian light cavalry LH, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
6 Spanish Javelinmen LF, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
6 Spanish Javelinmen LF, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
8 African Spearmen HF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Offensive Spear
8 African Spearmen HF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Offensive Spear
8 Campanian Hoplites HF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Offensive Spear
6 Spanish Scutarii MF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
8 Gallic foot MF, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
8 Gallic foot MF, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
2 Elephants Average, Undrilled
6 Balearic Slingers LF Unprotected, Superior, Undrilled, Sling

[Montagu]

lordmarc7,
I actually think you are too light on cav. Numidian skirmishers are not a replacement for reg cav. I'd either up the Superior BG cav to 6 and/or add a BG of Lybiphonicians.

I also think that 3 BGs of MF in an army of this size is too much. If you have even if you have tons of terrain 2x MF and 3x LF should be enough.

Lastly, I would consider 3 TC commanders. There are many, many units to control and being able to use the commanders to get unit into the correct location for a battle is important.

GL!

[shall]

CinC IC
2 Sub-general TC
4 Gallic cavalry Cv, Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Light Spear, Swordsmen
4 Gallic cavalry Cv, Protected, Superior, Undrilled, Light Spear, Swordsmen
4 Numidian light cavalry LH, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
4 Numidian light cavalry LH, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
6 Spanish Javelinmen LF, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
6 Spanish Javelinmen LF, Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
8 African Spearmen HF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Offensive Spear
8 African Spearmen HF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Offensive Spear
8 Campanian Hoplites HF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Offensive Spear
6 Spanish Scutarii MF, Protected, Average, Drilled, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
8 Gallic foot MF, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
8 Gallic foot MF, Protected, Average, Undrilled, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
2 Elephants Average, Undrilled
6 Balearic Slingers LF Unprotected, Superior, Undrilled, Sling

Your army above is pretty good os no reason not to try it as is ... from a a fair few such games ... FWIW ....

Make both Hvy Cv as good as you can - you will need them to win their flanks with a Numidian in support each.

You need another TC as someone has said - too many BGs for 3 generals and some will end up needing to get in the front to hold the Roman centre

If you plan to use the Gauls through terrain them MF is the right choice - army design is as much about how you plan to use it as anything.

The alternative is to HF them and put them between your reliable Africans in the open. I generally do the latter to keep a more open table allowing the numdians more of a free reign around the fringes. MF in the open are quite weak to mounted and - more importantaly vs Romans - they have a - CT vs heavy foot. AS you are going to lose a lot of combats vs legionaries this will tend to create terminal decline in your Gauls if they have to mix it with them unless they are HF. But choices...that are quite even.

Drop the Spanish MF and they will pay for the above I suspect.

Si

[lordmarc7]

Thanks for the advice Si. Question: How useful are elephants?

[shall]

IMHO

Very if you have 4 ...mixed blessing if you have 2

Si