Bursting through friends

nicofig · Post by **nicofig** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:28 pm

Hi,
p.48 we can read :

A battle group burst through by friendly shock troops drops one cohesion level:
- [...]
- If it is impossible (due to enemy troops, impassable terrain or the table edge) to shift friends back sufficiently to make room, the shock troops do not move at all and (if they were STEADY) drop to DISRUPTED.

But if the shock troops was FRAGMENTED or BROKEN?

Thanks

Seldon · Post by **Seldon** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:54 pm

Isn't tha case that when they are fragmented they loose their "shock status" ?

WhiteKnight · Post by **WhiteKnight** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:43 pm

Thats right, once fragmented or broken, troops cant count as "shock" status until/unless they are bolstered to disrupted . Its in the chart on p 114 and no doubt in the main text, too.

Martin

Seldon · Post by **Seldon** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:31 pm

so that would mean that they wouldn't generate a burst through due to charging situation if they are fragmented since in that case they are not shock, and if they burst through when routing, they are already routing anyways.

That would explain why the rules only say that they drop to disrupted, since that is the only alternative that could occur.

That is they way I read it, unless I am missing something.

cheers,
seldon

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:33 pm

And fragmented troops cannot charge.

Marc

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:49 pm

nicofig wrote:Hi,
p.48 we can read :
A battle group burst through by friendly shock troops drops one cohesion level:
- [...]
- If it is impossible (due to enemy troops, impassable terrain or the table edge) to shift friends back sufficiently to make room, the shock troops do not move at all and (if they were STEADY) drop to DISRUPTED.
But if the shock troops was FRAGMENTED or BROKEN?

Thanks

What do the rules say happens if they are not STEADY?
THe rules say nothing.
THerefore nothing happens.

FRAG or BROKEN could not charge anyway, but DISRUPTED could charge. If blocked as above they stay DISRUPTED.

nicofig · Post by **nicofig** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:40 am

Thank you very much

badlands22 · Post by **badlands22** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:20 am

In the example on pg.49, how can a BG charge if it failed it's CMT, therefore BTFL???

DVeight · Post by **DVeight** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:45 am

It would be beter if the BG bursting through would be disordered rather than disrupted. It makes more sense that, while going through your own BG, your unit loses its organisation rather than its morale. Disrupted, fragmented and Broken is morale based.

Going through your own BG in a charge would make it impossible to form wedge for knights for instance but why would that knight BG "feel" any worse of because they went through their own troops.

WhiteKnight · Post by **WhiteKnight** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:00 am

Badlands....the cataphracts burst through in the eg on p49 because they failed their test for shock troops NOT to charge.

In a burst through, its the BG that is burst through that becomes disrupted. Neither the order nor the cohesion of the shock troops bursing through changes.

Martin

badlands22 · Post by **badlands22** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:06 am

I haven't played a game yet, I'm still going over the rules and when I read that part it just didn't make since to me nor could I find why they would charge if they failed anything(roll).

Draka · Post by **Draka** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:19 am

Badlands - Shock troops by definition want to go and smack something. So whenever they get in range of an enemy they will do so - unless you try and stop them. Thus the roll NOT to charge - if you pass your (local and not modelled) commander managed to get in front of them and hold them back - if not, they cheerfully roll right over him and go smack someone! Thus in that example the roll to stop the charge failed and the result was a charge.

badlands22 · Post by **badlands22** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:06 am

Haa, I got it now. It makes since that way. I haven't got'n that far in the rules, yet. I guess. Thank You for the clarification.

shall · Post by **shall** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:34 am

What do the rules say happens if they are not STEADY?
THe rules say nothing.
THerefore nothing happens.

FRAG or BROKEN could not charge anyway, but DISRUPTED could charge. If blocked as above they stay DISRUPTED.

Correct

Si

Montagu · Post by **Montagu** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:42 pm

DVeight wrote:It would be beter if the BG bursting through would be disordered rather than disrupted. It makes more sense that, while going through your own BG, your unit loses its organisation rather than its morale. Disrupted, fragmented and Broken is morale based.

I believe disrupted is the better result of a burst through. Bursting causes both a physically and psychological issues. The troops that push into the other troops are running away w/o regard to formations ie bumping, shoving, knocking over troops in the non-panicked unit. The psychological effects are even worse. Most, if not all, solidiers of these times knew that most of the soldier were killed during the pursuit after a defeat. So if the army is going to route, you don't want to be anywhere near the rear of the conga line becuase those are going to be the first to die. Sight is very limited in a battlefield so troops seeing nearby troops running/panicking makes them VERY worried. (Which is why FoG has BGs take a cohesion test when troops within 3 MUs are broken.