simple conforming question

[domblas]

rather simple situation but we didn't succeed in deciding, pppp represent a pike bases, l l l l represent a legionary base:




pike BG charges legions BG and came to that situation at impact:

Code: Select all

 pppp pppp
     l l l l  l l l l  l l l l 


then, at conforming time (manoeuvre phase) Pike player decided to conform like that:

1: pppp pppp
            l l l l  l l l l  l l l l 
arguing that he prefered and that this way was the minimum conforming move

i said he'd rather conform like that:
2:     pppp pppp
        l l l l  l l l l  l l l lwhats the good conforming 1 or 2 ? or all?

[domblas]

aaarg, my spaces disapeared, my diagrams doesn't represent the situation anymore

[hammy]

If you want to do ASCII diagrams with spaces included you need to use the code button

type your ASCII art then highlight it an click code

Code: Select all

     1
    11
   111
  1111
 11111

And you should be able to do what you want.

[domblas]

[quote="domblas"]rather simple situation but we didn't succeed in deciding, pppp represent a pike bases, l l l l represent a legionary base:

Code: Select all

[quote][img]pike BG charges legions BG and came to that situation at impact:

 pppp pppp
     l l l l  l l l l  l l l l 


then, at conforming time (manoeuvre phase) Pike player decided to conform like that:

1: pppp pppp
            l l l l  l l l l  l l l l 
arguing that he prefered and that this way was the minimum conforming move

i said he'd rather conform like that:


2:     pppp pppp
        l l l l  l l l l  l l l l[/img][/quote]
whats the good conforming 1 or 2 ? or all?[img][/img][/quote]

[domblas]

Code: Select all

pppp pppp 
   l l l l   l l l l   l l l l 


then, at conforming time (manoeuvre phase) Pike player decided to conform like that: 

1: pppp pppp 
            l l l l   l l l l   l l l l 
arguing that he prefered and that this way was the minimum conforming move 

i said he'd rather conform like that: 
2: pppp pppp 
    l l l l  l l l l   l l l l

[domblas]

forget it
i can't represent it

[rogerg]

I do not have the rules with me. However, IIRC conforming is by the shortest move that leaves at least one base in contact. This is usually going to be less than half a base width of movement. It is not unusual to have a base that has less than half its width in contact to end up as an overlap.

Looking at your attempt at a diagram, it seems that one pike base is partly extending past the Roman line. If it has more than half a base in contact then it is going to move to its left and there will be two files of pike in full contact. If it has less, then it is going to end up as the overlap. Only one file of pike will have full contact.

The only situation I can think of where the slide to conform is more than half a base width is when the impact is fought by one base to one base that has 'clipped' its target and has less than half of its base front in contact.

[sagji]

If the start position is

Code: Select all

pppp pppp 
   llll llll llll 

Then you must conform as

Code: Select all

pppp pppp 
     llll llll llll 

If the start position is

Code: Select all

pppp pppp 
  llll llll llll 

Then you may choose to conform as above or as below.

Code: Select all

pppp pppp 
llll llll llll

[domblas]

thx sagii u answered my question

[hammy]

Remember you only get to choose the direction of conforming if you start exactly in the middle of the enemy base. There are circumstances where you will conform almost a whole base though because the shortest conform was not an available option because of it being blocked by enemy or friends in combat.

[rogerg]

Are you sure about that Hammy? I think that the conforming direction is fixed, except for the exact half base noted above. If you cannot conform the mandated way then you do not conform. I'll check the rules tonight.

If what you say is correct, there is room for some exploitation by blocking the easy conform.

[hammy]

Are you sure about that Hammy? I think that the conforming direction is fixed, except for the exact half base noted above. If you cannot conform the mandated way then you do not conform. I'll check the rules tonight.

If what you say is correct, there is room for some exploitation by blocking the easy conform.

Conforming is by the minimum move necessary, not by upto half a base. If conforming is blocked by friendly BGs not in combat they are just moved to make room so it isn't going to be easy to force a conform one way or the other.

[rogerg]

Agreed on that, but I am not sure we are interpreting 'minimum move' the same. Your earlier reply suggested that if conforming is blocked in one direction then you conform the other way. To my understanding the 'minimum move' rule means there is one direction that the conforming must take place in. If that direction is blocked, then the troops do not conform. There is not an alternative to conform the other way. I.e. it is minimum or nothing not 'minimum possible'.

[hammy]

Agreed on that, but I am not sure we are interpreting 'minimum move' the same. Your earlier reply suggested that if conforming is blocked in one direction then you conform the other way. To my understanding the 'minimum move' rule means there is one direction that the conforming must take place in. If that direction is blocked, then the troops do not conform. There is not an alternative to conform the other way. I.e. it is minimum or nothing not 'minimum possible'.

I see what you are saying but I have always taken it to be that the minimum move required to conform is used. If there is only one way to conform then whatever distance needed to conform must be the minimum. There is no mention of a limit to that minimum anywhere in the rules, it is just that when the bases are parallel and there is a choice then the shorter (minumum) distance will be used.

[rogerg]

We are still at odds here. I suggest that the direction to conform is decided by the 'minimum rule'. Then you look at if it is blocked and whether it can happen. Your wording 'If there is only one way to conform' is ambiguous. There will always be two ways to conform. There might be only one way that physically bases can conform, because of blocking troops. This might be the minimum available, but not the minimum if the block is removed.

E.g if, 15mm, a base is offset by 10mm then it can slide either 10mm one way or 30mm the other. If the 10mm direction is blocked it does not move 30mm the other way because that is the shortest available. The 10mm direction is the way it is obliged to conform and it either conforms that way when it can or it doesn't conform. [/i]

[shall]

Surely clearer than is being discussed but happy to FAQ it otherwise ... you cannot conform back out of combat.

Page 70 and 71 (including diagrams as important stuff in them)

Must pivot and or slide bases by the miminim necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact.

Usually means lining up each base "fully"in contact with an enemy base (not necessarily that contacted), or confroming to an overlap position. (see below)

Diagram that follows then makes it clear I think in conjunction with those words - up to 1 base width to line up with enemy base in contact...and contacts a base not contacted in fact. Overlap created as a result on the other side.

Overlap position is clearly something that will fight ... inferred heavily page 75 when first defined ..... but agreed not stated explicitly

So we can FAQ but not sure its worth it as the intent is surely clear on this one when words and daigs taken together....said in hope.

So they awlays confrom to front if possible with a full base slide/pivot such that a fight occurs, no sneaking off to the side.

Si

[lawrenceg]

Surely clearer than is being discussed but happy to FAQ it otherwise ... you cannot conform back out of combat.

Page 70 and 71 (including diagrams as important stuff in them)

Must pivot and or slide bases by the miminim necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact.

Usually means lining up each base "fully"in contact with an enemy base (not necessarily that contacted), or confroming to an overlap position. (see below)

Diagram that follows then makes it clear I think in conjunction with those words - up to 1 base width to line up with enemy base in contact...and contacts a base not contacted in fact. Overlap created as a result on the other side.

Overlap position is clearly something that will fight ... inferred heavily page 75 when first defined ..... but agreed not stated explicitly

So we can FAQ but not sure its worth it as the intent is surely clear on this one when words and daigs taken together....said in hope.

So they awlays confrom to front if possible with a full base slide/pivot such that a fight occurs, no sneaking off to the side.

Si

I don't think this answers the question asked, which is:

Which of these is the procedure for conforming, A or B?

A (Rogerg):

1. Pretend there are no obstructions to conforming.
2. Find the conformed position which requires the minimum move.
3. If this is not bocked then conform to that position.
4. If this is blocked then don't conform.

B (Hammy).

1. Consider all conformed positions which are not blocked.
2. If there are no such positions then don't conform.
3. If there is at least one then find the one which requires the minimum move.
4. Conform to that one.

[shall]

Ok that thelps thanks

Err .... neither ...or maybe Hammy's ..... in terms of how I play it ........ trying to be so detailed ..........

1. Pretend there are no obstructions to conforming I suppose
2. Find the conformed position which requires the minimum move but never to overlap only, this is just soemtrhing tagged on the side
3. If this is not bocked then conform to that position (but remember you can shift friendly obstacles to clear some blocks)
4. If this is truly blocked then find next shortest possible conform and repeat 1-3 except you can't go more than 1 base width and a pivot to do it (so sort of Hammy's I think)
5. If no such possible conform exist then don't conform and stay as you are

This conforms if you can as much as possible - that being the objective. If more than 1 is possible it takes the shortest path to a full conform of bases. Its the words "slide bases by the minimum necessary to conform to the enemy bases in contact" that matters. Certainly the spirit of the rules - consistent with the rest of FOG - is for goodness saake get more stuck in not less!!

I am pretty sure RBS and TS will agree but don't bank on it.

Si

[rogerg]

I am concerned that the 'Hammy conform' might be a problem. For example, there could be a situation where a base is 1mm away from conforming. If this is blocked then it would have to slide 39mm in the opposite direction. This might create some very odd results, particularly a vulnerable overlap overlap appearing.

Lawrence has stated the situation clearly. I am not sure you have clarified things very much Simon. Stating 'full base contact' is digging us in a bit deeper. I am now unsure if you would agree with the situations described below.

Two situations and how we are playing it:
1) One base on one base contact at impact, length of contact is 1mm. Conform is a slide of 39mm to ensure there is one base full contact. I.e. it is not an option to slide out of contact to be just an overlap.

2) Two bases of each side contact at impact, but are offset so that one of the bases only makes contact with 1mm of frontage. In this case, the slide to conform is 1mm. The base with 1mm contact has now become an overlap. The same number of bases fight, but there is one in full contact, one as an overlap.

Situation two is consistent with the angled contact where the base has hit the side of the enemy and conforms to overlap (as described in the rules)

(This has now now extended the argument. You started it by talking about full bases )

[rogerg]

The other members of the Halifax Wargames Society Rules Lawyers (Brandon, Handley and Co.) ruled in favour of the Hammy interpretation last night. After reading the rules again, I do not think the wording makes the situation completely clear either way. What I really want is agreement on one interpretation so that the issue doesn't come up in the middle of a game. I'm happy to go along with 'minimum distance to conform' being the 'minimum possible at the time'.

If there are any new potential players reading this they may be wondering what the discussion is all about. Be reassured. After playing the rules for over a year we have only such minor things to argue about. FoG is one of the most solid rule sets I have ever played.