A bit generous with late USSR tanks?

[Baku42]

Old Panzer General here from the 90's...many thanks for a) reviving Panzer General (I had given up hope after PzG2...and games for that matter). And how sweet it was to see it ready to go for my iPad. PzG on the go! )) Hint Hint: Clash of Steel

All felt good up until the Bagration scenario. In short, I think you may have overdone the defensive ratings for the late war Soviet tanks. Or maybe the German guns are underrated? Dunno. Some strange happenings in that scenario.

A) The JS-2 tanks. Same defensive rating as a King Tiger. In reality, same weight class as a Panther & designed to counter the Panther/Tiger I. Two 2 star King Tigers took on a JS-2 & while I would have predicted annihilation, it basically bruised it up knocking it down to a 4 rating. I felt like I was taking on a JS-3 or a T-10.

B) A new Panther fires its first shot at a armored car on a river without a retreat path. Again I was expecting annihilation. Again it only put a dent in the armored car.

In general, it seems everything SU-100 on up may be overrated defensively. The Panther case might have been just real bad luck? But the Su-100, JSU's, & JS-2 were extraordinarily difficult to kill...in a hard to believe way.

C) and the next scenario, the Jagdtiger AT rating is so low, for a 128mm gun?

D) the Flak 128mm gun...is it an oversight that it can't deploy in AT role or is this intentional? It was quite a shock when I upgraded my 88s to 128s, put them in AT positions & then found that I couldn't convert them to AT

E) what are the stats for the 88 Flak in AT role?

[captainjack]

the Jagdtiger AT rating is so low, for a 128mm gun?

I could never understand why the Jagdtiger doesn't have better attack stats, and eventually I got fed up enough to learn how to mod the equipment files to make it more like a 128 than an 88. However, I think that modding only works on the PC versions.

[ThorHa]

If you compare the late Russian tanks and AT units with the T34 or the PzIV their values are just fine. Which means that in comparison German armour and the late German AT units are clearly nerfed. Which is most likely intended as a counter to the fact that a German player can buy these units in theoretically unlimited quantities ...

To make a long story short - the basic design of the campaigns after 42 is simply flawed beyond repair. No matter what you do on the value of single units you will with such measures only cover one flaw while directly opening a new one. Learn to live with it, if playing on ipad you are even unable to at least counter the Random Number Generator (which by design is not really random) by choosing "Dice Chess".

Having played the first 44 scenarios on difficulty General I still find them easy enough.

Regards,
Thorsten

[Soar]

C) and the next scenario, the Jagdtiger AT rating is so low, for a 128mm gun?

The Jagdtiger's 128mm gun had weaker anti-armor performance compared to the 88mm L/71 on the Tiger II/Jagdpanther in real life as well, while its Soft Attack is penalized in-game for it being a tank destroyer.

D) the Flak 128mm gun...is it an oversight that it can't deploy in AT role or is this intentional? It was quite a shock when I upgraded my 88s to 128s, put them in AT positions & then found that I couldn't convert them to AT

Only a few of the AA units in the game can be switched to AT mode, even though others were also used in an AT or anti-soft-target role historically (I'm not familiar with the specifics regarding the 128mm Flak).

[Baku42]

wrt the 128, I admit I don't know anything about the performance of the thing and I'm not going to investigate I'll assume much smarter guys than I have already looked into this. Just common sense-wise, if it was a poor performer, why was the Pak-44 developed, and the Jagdtiger & Maus as well fitted with the 128?

The defense ratings of the late war USSR heavies bothers me, and somewhat blows the game for me. I'm definitely going to have to readjust...or maybe not.

One thing I say they did improve are the AT guns. They were worthless in PzG. Next in line being AA guns.

[edahl1980]

wrt the 128, I admit I don't know anything about the performance of the thing and I'm not going to investigate I'll assume much smarter guys than I have already looked into this. Just common sense-wise, if it was a poor performer, why was the Pak-44 developed, and the Jagdtiger & Maus as well fitted with the 128?

The defense ratings of the late war USSR heavies bothers me, and somewhat blows the game for me. I'm definitely going to have to readjust...or maybe not.

One thing I say they did improve are the AT guns. They were worthless in PzG. Next in line being AA guns.

In the late game we are supposed to struggle with Soviet tanks.
Germany lost the war to hordes of T-34 and IS2.

The main difference before and after 1942 for me is that after i have to think, i cant just charge in.
But 3star Panthers, Tigers, Tiger II, Jagdpanthers and so on still smash Soviet tanks. You just have to plan, and combine with artillery and cannonbirds hitting from above.

[captainjack]

The Jagdtiger's 128mm gun had weaker anti-armor performance compared to the 88mm L/71 on the Tiger II/Jagdpanther

True the 88/L71 was an exceptionally good gun - it would have to be to match up well with a gun almost half as big again. My sources (the usual dodgy Google-searched ones so not terribly defensible!) suggested the 128 was about the same (maybe a little better) up to 2km but kept its performance better to about 4km. I have no idea if an effective range of 4km has any practical benefit or if it just sounds impressive.

But in a game with Maus, Tortoise and T90 SPAAGs, that and the reports that the sheer impact of the Soviet 122 shells could cause substantial damage even when they didn't penetrate is enough for me to tweak the Jagdtiger to add some extra colour. I have taken account of the notorious unreliability of the Jagdtiger with the idea that I'd like to make it good enough so that I wanted one, but with enough limitations that I wouldn't want two. I'll find out if I got that right if I can get through 44East next time.

[Baku42]

Actually this isn't about the 128, it's about punishing the Jagdtiger. Looking at the stats table for HA:

Jagdtiger: 21
Maus: 26
King Tiger, Pak 43, Elefant, Jagdpanther, Nashorn: 24
Panther, JPIV/70: 19
Tiger, Flak 88: 17

The values are consistent regardless of turret, non turret, or towed within a caliber, except for the 128.

[Baku42]

I guess it was too cramped in there

[captainjack]

Looking at the stats table for HA:

M28 with a 105mm gun is also given 26HA.
I would think the long range characteristics of the 128 should come out as an extra point or two of HA over the 88/L71 so 26 looks about right as a tank gun along with some extra initiative (though in real life there were enough problems with aiming that you could argue for an impairment).

In most cases an AT gun is given slightly better HA than the equivalent tank gun, so my Jagdtiger, Pak 44 and late game Sturer Emil have HA28. (my early game Sturer Emil assumes two or three prototypes mixed with Marders and isn't as good - it competes closely with the better-armoured Stug 3).

Due to a problem with the general (I still struggle on 44 East), I have only so far got to use the late game Sturer Emil. Despite the impressive sounding HA, I've never contemplated using more than 1 of these as the contemporary Elefant's armour is so much better and the attack stats at 3 or 4* are not too different. I suspect that by the time the Jadgtiger becomes available, the number of experienced IS2s I will be facing will mean that the balance of power will not be shifted much.

Note that this doesn't mean I'm right but rather that I like Jagdtigers and (fairly basic) modding!

[ThorHa]

You´re really tweaking files for a few points more or less? Impressive .

Regards,
Thorsten

[captainjack]

Hi ThorHa,
Deep down I'd love to be developing my own scenarios and campaigns, but it could be some time before I'm ready for that.
Meantime I add in some extra units for a bit of colour (there's a lot of people who make cool graphics I can use), or make adjustments where I find something that doesn't look right and where I can justify the change. I have a personal preference not to skew the balance too much and try to aim for extra colour over an unbeatable force, but I'd never claim my mods would suit others - they are for personal amusement only - like when I was when playing Allied Corps and had a run in with defensive fire from my switchable Grenadiers!

Anyway, back (more or less) on topic. When fighting so many experienced IS2 and so on, it's easy to end up with nothing but Tiger 2s, Maus or Elefant. The odd extra unit with high HA but some other limitations - whether armour, movement or whatever adds a little extra challenge. The 4 or 5* 128 Pak 44 or Jadgtiger will destroy anything it can get a decent shot at, but can you keep it working order before the attack and ensure it doesn't use up all its ammo before the critical moment? If the speed or fuel is not that good, how do you get it into position fast enough to use its HA? As noted I haven't yet got far enough into the East to find out with the Pak44 and Jadgtiger. Certainly in 43 East the Sturer Emil looks good but keeping it in working order long enough to be useful is a challenge - a bit like managing a Flammpanzer 2 where you have to decide if it's worth the price of the accompanying support artillery, AA protection and maybe recon or kradschutzen unit.