Charge from board edge problem

[titanu]

In the picture above the unit of LH is right on the board edge. It wants to wheel and charge BOTH the camp to its front (the buff rectangle to it's front) and the bowmen with the yellow marker. To do this it must wheel. This would mean that the back edge of the base will go 'off table'. In normal movement it would be allowed a shift. But this is not permitted in a charge. Bases can be dropped back to avoid friends but this is NOT what is happening.
Hence I think that the LH cannot charge the bows at all and can only charge straight forward into the camp.
Do the team agree?

[kal5056]

The bases are an artificial construct. I would rule the wheel is possible and legal

Gino
SMAC

[philqw78]

No. I will expand. When a BG wheels out of the middle of a line it does not shift. To do so other BG would also have to shift when they are not moving. And the reason given above was given previously by Dr BS as to why BG can wheel out of line

[RobKhan]

I think the first answer is good too. If you restrict the LH charge due to the rear corner crossing the edge of the world with a wheel, then BG's in a line with other BG's on corner to corner side edge contact would not be able to wheel in a charge without "interpenetrating" the neighbouring BG with the rear corner of its base/s. Interestingly in DBA3 this "rear base corner" situation is specifically covered. It's good old common sense. But for the "Legalists" it's fodder for fun.

Cheers
Robkhan

[titanu]

No. I will expand. When a BG wheels out of the middle of a line it does not shift...

It is a good point Phil BUT the wheeling from a battle line is NOT specifically covered in the rules. P47 Shifting, right hand column; 'By non-routing troops if this is necessary to avoid crossing the table edge'.

[petedalby]

Leaving aside the thorny question of wheeling through friendly troops and the impact of the table edge.....

Any reason why the LH can't declare a charge vs both the yellow marker unit and the Camp and drop into a single column to achieve this?

[AlanCutner]

Sorry Pete, you only drop a file in a charge to avoid friends. However I agree with previous answers that edge of the table doesn't prevent the charge anyway.

[petedalby]

Sorry Pete, you only drop a file in a charge to avoid friends.

No apology necessary Alan.

It actually says on page 58 - 'if necessary to pass friendly troops' - no mention of avoid.

If there was an impassable bit of terrain 35mm from the base edge - presumably you would agree that a base could not charge something through the gap? Or perhaps not?

So in the OP, the situation is not dissimilar - the gap between the table edge and the friendly BG appears to be less than 2 base widths if you wheel.

But if you drop a file, you can pass the friendly BG in a charge preceded by a wheel.

Either way we agree on the outcome - the LH can charge both camp and enemy BG and it will only get one base at impact vs the enemy BG.

[hazelbark]

So everyone agrees. The charge is permitted.

[RobKhan]

In the photo, is the light foot friendly or hostile to BG with the yellow marker??

If friendly, then maybe the rule stopping you from minimizing the number of dice in combat would mean the LH have to do their charge with a more extreme wheel and contact the LF as well. You only get one dice for fighting the camp, but 2 for the contact with the LF and one for the Yellow marker foot. Of course, if the LH base has the distance with step forward to the LF and based on the measuring stick it is likely.

Cheers
Robkhan

[petedalby]

So everyone agrees. The charge is permitted.

Hopefully so Dan.

I'd like to think most players would accept Gino's view. Similarly Phil's point about wheeling into / through adjacent friends is spot on and should apply to the table edge too.

My suggestion on dropping back bases is there in an attempt to show the camp and BG should both be doomed no matter how much you wriggle.

[titanu]

Sorry Pete, you only drop a file in a charge to avoid friends.

No apology necessary Alan.
It actually says on page 58 - 'if necessary to pass friendly troops' - no mention of avoid.

The extension of what you are saying is, IF the LF are where they are the charge is possible but if they were NOT there then the charge is not possible

If I summed the position up as "We all think that the charge SHOULD be allowed but the rules do/may not allow it".

[hazelbark]

If I summed the position up as "We all think that the charge SHOULD be allowed but the rules do/may not allow it".

Nope. That is not the case and if you search the authors have commented frequently on the base overlapping issue before.

[petedalby]

The extension of what you are saying is, IF the LF are where they are the charge is possible but if they were NOT there then the charge is not possible

Nah - cos then the LH wouldn't have been squeezed up against the board edge

Did the owner of the LH need 3 more attrition points to break the opponent's army by any chance?

[berthier]

I agree with Gino. This would not be an issue in the GCC.

[dave_r]

I agree with Gino. This would not be an issue in the GCC.

Which is almost certainly what would happen in the UK if an umpire was called. This thread is to educate and discuss how the rules are written and possible clarifications that may be needed.

I'm known for being fairly robust in my arguments on these threads - but that is for the exact reason of not having to have a huge argument in the middle of a game. As long as we all know of these things and plan ahead for them everything is fine.

It's surprises that annoy people.

[grahambriggs]

To my mind, this is a situation where you need to use common sense - of course they can wheel - and if both players are happy to do so fine. That's certainly the way I play it. Also, as others have quoted, the authors have made their views known on similar cases that they should be allowed. But the rules don't actually say that.

My reading of the rules is that the impact phase options for the LH are these:

- don't declare a charge.
- charge straight forwards into the camp.
- declare a charge including a wheel. However, page 54 then applies: "a charging...BG whose move would take any part of it off the table edge instead halts its move at the table edge". So it would halt as soon as it starts to wheel.

So a new player at a competition who points out the rule and says you can't charge both would feel cheated if an umpire gave the response "I know that's what you said but that's not how we play it here" particularly if the BG being charged is the one AP needed for the game.

It's a slightly different situation compared to wheeling out of the line. In that case, the rules simply say nothing about what happens. In this it's relatively clearly laid out: the chargers halt.

[grahambriggs]

Sorry Pete, you only drop a file in a charge to avoid friends.

No apology necessary Alan.

It actually says on page 58 - 'if necessary to pass friendly troops' - no mention of avoid.

If there was an impassable bit of terrain 35mm from the base edge - presumably you would agree that a base could not charge something through the gap? Or perhaps not?

So in the OP, the situation is not dissimilar - the gap between the table edge and the friendly BG appears to be less than 2 base widths if you wheel.

But if you drop a file, you can pass the friendly BG in a charge preceded by a wheel.

Either way we agree on the outcome - the LH can charge both camp and enemy BG and it will only get one base at impact vs the enemy BG.

But it's not necessary to drop back bases to pass the friends. If you charge straight forwards, you can pass the friends and hit the camp without dropping back bases.

[AlanCutner]

But it's not necessary to drop back bases to pass the friends. If you charge straight forwards, you can pass the friends and hit the camp without dropping back bases.

Interesting interpretation. Are you saying that a charging bg that can charge straight forward could not wheel at start of charge if it meant dropping a file to pass friends? I have always played it that a bg can always wheel at start of charge, but if friends are then in the way it is necessary to drop a file to pass them. Ofcourse there are other rules that also have to be satisfied, such as number of dice at impact.

[grahambriggs]

But it's not necessary to drop back bases to pass the friends. If you charge straight forwards, you can pass the friends and hit the camp without dropping back bases.

Interesting interpretation. Are you saying that a charging bg that can charge straight forward could not wheel at start of charge if it meant dropping a file to pass friends? I have always played it that a bg can always wheel at start of charge, but if friends are then in the way it is necessary to drop a file to pass them. Ofcourse there are other rules that also have to be satisfied, such as number of dice at impact.

No, I'm saying that in the situation given in this example you don't need to drop bases back to pass the friends.