A couple of questions from last night's game

[bddbrown]

Hi,

A couple of questions from last nights game.

1. I had a BG of Longbow in contact with a BG of Elite legionaries when they broke in the impact phase after being charged by some pike. The longbow now pursued in the impact phase. Can they now move (and more pertinently) can they put down stakes in the maneouvre phase?
The rules say (p.70) "Battle groups cannot be moved in the manoeruvre phase if they are broken, already in close combat or charged in the impact phase.", so it seems fairly clear that they can?

2. The aforementioned BG of legionaries was actually previously intercepted in the flank by the BG of Longbowmen. This was the only contact, so we turned the end bases to face and fought the impact phase. In the manoeuvre phase the BG of legionaries needs to conform (it is there go as they charged and got intercepted in the flank). I thought the legionaries now comformed. But the rules say (p.71) "A battle group that has some bases facing at 90 or 180 degrees to the rest (due to enemy contacting its former flank or rear) does not conform to the enemy.". This seems to imply they do not conform and remain facing in two directions?

Bruce.

[rbodleyscott]

1. I had a BG of Longbow in contact with a BG of Elite legionaries when they broke in the impact phase after being charged by some pike. The longbow now pursued in the impact phase. Can they now move (and more pertinently) can they put down stakes in the maneouvre phase?
The rules say (p.70) "Battle groups cannot be moved in the manoeruvre phase if they are broken, already in close combat or charged in the impact phase.", so it seems fairly clear that they can?

The aforementioned BG of legionaries was actually previously intercepted in the flank by the BG of Longbowmen.

An interception is an "interception charge" so they can't in your specific example.

2. The aforementioned BG of legionaries was actually previously intercepted in the flank by the BG of Longbowmen. This was the only contact, so we turned the end bases to face and fought the impact phase. In the manoeuvre phase the BG of legionaries needs to conform (it is there go as they charged and got intercepted in the flank). I thought the legionaries now comformed. But the rules say (p.71) "A battle group that has some bases facing at 90 or 180 degrees to the rest (due to enemy contacting its former flank or rear) does not conform to the enemy.". This seems to imply they do not conform and remain facing in two directions?

Correct, however, they can voluntarily reform to all face the original flank - but they are not obliged to do so. (Last bullet in reforming section P.70).

This is designed to prevent the cheese of charging enemy in the flank with LH to make them all turn, then breaking off the LH. Then in your next turn charge them with heavy troops in their new flank, which was their previous front. If they choose not to reform to all face the LH, the heavy charge won't count as a flank charge.

[carlos]

AFAIK, it's a Yes to both questions.

[bddbrown]

Thanks for the reply Richard.

1. I had a BG of Longbow in contact with a BG of Elite legionaries when they broke in the impact phase after being charged by some pike. The longbow now pursued in the impact phase. Can they now move (and more pertinently) can they put down stakes in the maneouvre phase?
The rules say (p.70) "Battle groups cannot be moved in the manoeruvre phase if they are broken, already in close combat or charged in the impact phase.", so it seems fairly clear that they can?

The aforementioned BG of legionaries was actually previously intercepted in the flank by the BG of Longbowmen.

An interception is an "interception charge" so they can't in your specific example.

That was in the previous bound. The longbow remained in contact for a bound (fighting melee) and then the pike charged in my impact phase.
Opponents Impact Phase - He charges I intercept. Legion disrupted.
Opponents Manouevre Phase - He reforms to face the longbow.
Opponents Melee Phase - I survive!
My Impact Phase - I charge with pikes into the flank. The legion fragmented. They lose the combat and fail their test. Break. Longbow and Pikes pursue.
My Manoeuvre Phase - Pikes cannot move as they charged. But Longbow can move as they did not charge or intercept charge but only pursued.

2. The aforementioned BG of legionaries was actually previously intercepted in the flank by the BG of Longbowmen. This was the only contact, so we turned the end bases to face and fought the impact phase. In the manoeuvre phase the BG of legionaries needs to conform (it is there go as they charged and got intercepted in the flank). I thought the legionaries now comformed. But the rules say (p.71) "A battle group that has some bases facing at 90 or 180 degrees to the rest (due to enemy contacting its former flank or rear) does not conform to the enemy.". This seems to imply they do not conform and remain facing in two directions?

Correct, however, they can voluntarily reform to all face the original flank - but they are not obliged to do so. (Last bullet in reforming section P.70).

This is designed to prevent the cheese of charging enemy in the flank with LH to make them all turn, then breaking off the LH. Then in your next turn charge them with heavy troops in their new flank, which was their previous front. If they choose not to reform to all face the LH, the heavy charge won't count as a flank charge.

Ok, and if they choose NOT to reform do they count as fighting in two directions and lose a PoA or not?

If they choose NOT to reform, and I then charge frontally and hit the base that turned to fight the longbowmen. i.e. I contact one base in the flank but the others frontally, does this count as a flank charge? It is not clear with edge should count as the front or the flank now.

I suppose the real question is what now counts as flank charges in this case?

http://picasaweb.google.com/bddbrown/Fi ... 6641507666

[pbrandon]

I don't have the rules with me, but I think I looked at this a while ago in the context of a kinked column and found that to count as a flank charge you have to satisfy the conditions for it being one for all bases of the BG being charged. I think it is in charging flank/rear, but I'm hazy on that.

Paul

[hammy]

I suppose the real question is what now counts as flank charges in this case?

Looking at the diagram and assuming that the target of the charge has been hit in the flank then chosen not to conform then I don't think either of the charges you have depicted are flank charges.

[rogerg]

I remember a game against Paul where we had an issue similar to this. This would be pre-publiation on a late beta set. We found that if some of the bases were facing the flank and others the front then both faces were 'fronts' for the purpose of being behind a flank. Does that make sense? If the unit had bases facing North and East the only flank/rear charges would come from West or South. I presume this is still in the rules somewhere.

With regard to the main question I am sure the answer must be in the rules. What does it say in the manouvre phase section? Is it 'cannot move in this phase if you moved in the impact phase' or 'cannot move if you charged in the impact phase'?

I don't think I can get away with bringing the rules to work and looking it up during the day

[hammy]

The words in the rules are "charged in the impact phase" not moved in the impact phase. This might be an oversight as it is a relatively unusual situation but as the letter of the rules stands if the longbow pursue a broken enemy in the impact phase having not charged that impact phase themselves then they can move (or place stakes).

[marshalney2000]

I am confused now. I know what is says in the rules re charging in the impact phase but on page 37 under manouvre phase it states that troops who moved in the impact phase cannot move in the maouvre phase. This presumably stops the placement of stakes as this requires a cmt in the manouvre phase.
John

[rbodleyscott]

2. The aforementioned BG of legionaries was actually previously intercepted in the flank by the BG of Longbowmen. This was the only contact, so we turned the end bases to face and fought the impact phase. In the manoeuvre phase the BG of legionaries needs to conform (it is there go as they charged and got intercepted in the flank). I thought the legionaries now comformed. But the rules say (p.71) "A battle group that has some bases facing at 90 or 180 degrees to the rest (due to enemy contacting its former flank or rear) does not conform to the enemy.". This seems to imply they do not conform and remain facing in two directions?

Correct, however, they can voluntarily reform to all face the original flank - but they are not obliged to do so. (Last bullet in reforming section P.70).

This is designed to prevent the cheese of charging enemy in the flank with LH to make them all turn, then breaking off the LH. Then in your next turn charge them with heavy troops in their new flank, which was their previous front. If they choose not to reform to all face the LH, the heavy charge won't count as a flank charge.

Ok, and if they choose NOT to reform do they count as fighting in two directions and lose a PoA or not?

If they choose NOT to reform, and I then charge frontally and hit the base that turned to fight the longbowmen. i.e. I contact one base in the flank but the others frontally, does this count as a flank charge? It is not clear with edge should count as the front or the flank now.

I suppose the real question is what now counts as flank charges in this case?

http://picasaweb.google.com/bddbrown/Fi ... 6641507666

May I humbly suggest some reading of the rules is in order.

Check out the definition of fighting in two directions on p.134,

Also check out the requirements of charging and flank or rear on page 56.

You will find your questions answered.

As to the first question, I have no problem with the longbowmen moving in the manouvre phase if they have lost contact with the routers. I would have a problem with then doing something different if they havent, because they are not allowed to stop pursuing until the pass a CMT to stop pursuing in thr JAP.

IThis might need clarifying.

[marshalney2000]

I am still confused by the difference between page 33 where it states troops moved in the impact phase cannot move in the manouvre phase but later on the restriction is in relation to those who charged. In the longbow example that started this of if they pursued in the impact phase then this is movement.
Sorry if I am being a bit slow on this.
John

[bddbrown]

Correct, however, they can voluntarily reform to all face the original flank - but they are not obliged to do so. (Last bullet in reforming section P.70).

This is designed to prevent the cheese of charging enemy in the flank with LH to make them all turn, then breaking off the LH. Then in your next turn charge them with heavy troops in their new flank, which was their previous front. If they choose not to reform to all face the LH, the heavy charge won't count as a flank charge.

Ok, and if they choose NOT to reform do they count as fighting in two directions and lose a PoA or not?

If they choose NOT to reform, and I then charge frontally and hit the base that turned to fight the longbowmen. i.e. I contact one base in the flank but the others frontally, does this count as a flank charge? It is not clear with edge should count as the front or the flank now.

I suppose the real question is what now counts as flank charges in this case?

http://picasaweb.google.com/bddbrown/Fi ... 6641507666

May I humbly suggest some reading of the rules is in order.

Check out the definition of fighting in two directions on p.134,

Also check out the requirements of charging and flank or rear on page 56.

You will find your questions answered.

As to the first question, I have no problem with the longbowmen moving in the manouvre phase if they have lost contact with the routers. I would have a problem with then doing something different if they havent, because they are not allowed to stop pursuing until the pass a CMT to stop pursuing in thr JAP.

IThis might need clarifying.

Thanks Richard, I will read up on the rules as you indicate.

On the final point, I managed to engineer some cheese so that the pikes made their pursuit move first and cut off the longbowmen from then making contact.

[rbodleyscott]

On the final point, I managed to engineer some cheese so that the pikes made their pursuit move first and cut off the longbowmen from then making contact.

However, as John has pointed out, on P.37 it does say that troops only move in the manouevre phase if they did not move in the impact phase.

One for the authors to discuss and clarify I think.

I suspect that we did not consider the issue of troops pursuing in the impact phase when we drew up this part of the rules.

[rogerg]

If I can offer an opinion, I would prefer the rules to say did not 'charge' in the impact phase. 'Move' can be interpreted as including the shifting of troops during interpenetrations for shock troop charges. 'Move' also creates an anomaly with pursuers. A pursuit in the opponent's JAP allows a move in the manouvre phase. A pursuit in the immediately following own impact phase would prevent movement in the manouvre phase. In terms of pulses of battle (or whatever the phrase is) these two phases seem part of the same event, the end of a combat They should have similar outcomes.

The only oddity would be as in the example in this thread where two pursuers, one from an impact charge, the other from a combat, would get different treatment. I can rationalise this as the chargers being more dispersed after their charge and needing time to collect together. Those pursuing from a melee have less energy and be more ready to reform and move on. OK, not the strongest argument, but it would make the rules neater.

[petedalby]

On the final point, I managed to engineer some cheese so that the pikes made their pursuit move first and cut off the longbowmen from then making contact.

Can you do that?

I thought the fastest pursuers hasd to move first? Page 108. Or did the VMD go in your favour?

Pete

[bddbrown]

Looks like I engineered some illegal cheese.

Another thing I didn't know to note down somewhere.

[bddbrown]

Thanks Richard, I will read up on the rules as you indicate.

So having read the rules I only got it wrong on two counts. Sorry.

[shall]

See we did think about some of those things

Sounds like we may need to just clarify what a "move" is. We'll bash it around a bit as Richard says.

Si

[petedalby]

FWIW I prefer simplicity.

Any troops that move in the Impact can not shoot. For ease and consistency I'd prefer you to stick with the 'any troops that move in the Impact phase can not move again in the manouevre phase' - even to put down stakes.

There is a danger in having too many exceptions - it makes them so easy to miss.

Pete