Need help with the DLC Grand Campaigns

[BiteNibbleChomp]

I guess looking for a PzC type game with those features (where what you do previously affects the later campaigns) is not available yet.

The vanilla campaign works like that:

Low Countries + France (DV) = Sealion40
" " + " (MV) = Greece
Sealion + Moscow = USA
Defeat at Sealion 42 or Kursk = Italy/Bagration/other dumb scenarios.

The only let down there is the victory conditions (Capture/hold _ objectives in/for _ turns or less/more)

- BNC

[joe6778]

I'm not crazy about the victory conditions in vanilla PzC- it's basically a race against the clock. One of my biggest gripes with the whole PzG/PzC series, including the Grand Campaigns, is it's a race to secure locations and no PPs or VPs are earned for destroying enemy units. Plus the scenario sequence is pretty much fixed.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

PPs are earned if you force enemies to surrender in the 1.20 rules. Maybe the Afrika and Allied campaigns would be more fun? Or the mods?

- BNC

[matterhorn]

... so I thought the player might be able to alter history by doing better than the Germans did. If the player gets DV after DV it should be reflected in the following scenarios. ...

negative
You wil have to fight countless soviet units in '44 and '45 too. But it's not that bad.

... I guess looking for a PzC type game with those features (where what you do previously affects the later campaigns) is not available yet.

Like BNC already suggested: AC - there's a "winning path" in AC

endur gave a good tip using the preset core force by starting a '43, '44 or '45 GC
I did this too in the past:
You will have units, that you otherwise might not have and learn, that they can be very effective.
And you can try new tactics, I mean it doesn't hurt when you play the first five or six scenarios in a GC and you loose some units, it's kind of tutorial/training phase.
In PG and AG I always liked some scenarios like Jupiter, Overlord and Germany for that reasons.

[joe6778]

For those still following this thread, I just got a DV in the East 43 Kremenchung scenario on Colonel difficulty.

However, I earned only 1300 PPs for this victory and in the process had two core units w/ heroes eliminated and the rest of my core severely weakened against waves of attacking Russians.

The whole premise for rewarding prestige in PzC is wrong. If I win DVs in tough battles, my prestige with German command should grow and should be reflected in very high prestige points so I can then use the PPs to purchase better equipment, replace my troops, and move on to further glory for the Fatherland.

As it is, I've earned DVs in most of the East 43 scenarios on Colonel difficulty and only have 4000 PPs to show for it up to this point in the campaign.

Relatively low PPs for DVs makes no sense. This just adds to my frustration with the game.

[joe6778]

I gave the scenario another try.

It's impossible to hold on to all the victory cities without losing core units and severely damaging the rest while keeping around 3000 PPs.

Either I'm just going to pull all my units behind the river around turn 12 and settle for a MV, or set the difficulty to Lieutenant.

[Victor_K]

Read the briefing again. Attack quickly and destroy as many of the soviet artillery as you can. Keep some over strengthed infantry in Kremenchung supported by artillery and AA. Pull back across the river at all the other locations. I strongly recommend watching Deductor's AAR on this scenario. You can walk out of this one with a DV and not loose any units.

[jkombae]

And in addition to Victor's stategy:
- send 2 fast infantery units and 1 supporting AA adn Artillary to the norhtern cost. In case that some landing craft reach the coast you are prepared.
- expect the main attack on Kremenchung and another wave at the twin-bridge in the center. On the other bridges and the southern city only few units are needed to secure flanks and hold back attacks.

[MartyWard]

I gave the scenario another try.

It's impossible to hold on to all the victory cities without losing core units and severely damaging the rest while keeping around 3000 PPs.

Either I'm just going to pull all my units behind the river around turn 12 and settle for a MV, or set the difficulty to Lieutenant.

Sometimes you need to realize you don't want to go for a DV or even an MV as it will cost you too much. Usually you can get an MV is a scenario without suffering much in the way of losses.

[captainjack]

Strange as it seems I quite like Kremenchug.

My SE units go to defend possible landing sites - beating up boats is a good safe way to add an extra star for your brand new SE Panther. They get a pair of strategic bombers and a mobile AA unit for company - the mobile AA weakens the fighter cover so your own fighter(s) can clear them faster. The combined force clears the boats fast enough to allow some of the SE tanks to head to Kremenchug itself after a few turns, where they can bolster the defence or launch a counter attack.

I usually upgrade all of the reserve units to infantry for the better defence. Even pre-43 infantry have GD8, and work OK if you are mainly interested in holding up units rather than damaging them. The raid over the river for the artillery units starts OK, and for me the big danger is to think that it's going well and pushing on too far. I learnt the hard way that the best way to meet the counter attacks is when freshly re-supplied, well positioned and backed by artillery rather than dispersed over a broad deep front with only 2 ammo left and a few strength down. Checking the objectives in the message box every few turns helps refresh that little voice warning you to be careful.

Remember too that there's several experienced 85s around as well as a lot of air units and a few SPAAG 90 so your air units should probably be defending your ground troops and finishing off damaged or suppressed enemy rather than looking for targets - another reason for sending my strat bombers to sea is to avoid flak damage early on. I would probably only bring Rudel and leave other tac bombers behind for this one. His main job is to destroy any suppressed AA units and to help clear a path for any damaged units that need space to pull back.

For teh artillery hunt, I find one or two Flammpanzers can be helpful for quickly finishing off suppressed artillery, conscript units and other soft targets with the 140% RoF and ignoring entrenchment. They are very vulnerable to air attack and enemy tanks so need some care, but are useful if treated as fast moving pioneers. I often team them with a Wurfrahmen and sdkfz10/4 - suppress, destroy, scare off aircraft and move on. A supporting Kradschutzen can work quite well - a bit outclassed in 43, but the 3 spotting picks up supporting artillery and nearby tanks in time to avoid severe problems. Krads are quite handy in this role if you have an infantry unit with a spotting hero. Plus if you lose a krad, they work nearly as well green as when experienced and are cheap compared with the other units.

[joe6778]

I retried this three more times.

I have no trouble holding off the landing on the north coast: they're mostly conscript units. The SE city is also very easy to hold with three or four units. I'm also able to hold off the attacks while holding all the victory cities until turn 15.

Turn 15 begins the last major Russian counter attack with many more air units and many very heavy tanks, guard units, artillery, and cavalry. It's ridiculous how many units you're up against here- almost every hex has a unit in it. This really pisses me off. Up to this point I actually think that I can survive with my core and about 4500 PPs. But it's just not happening.

Settling for a MV brings me back to my previous complaint. A DV here should be worth thousands of PPs based on what you're up against. Instead you wind up with a battered core, a couple of thousand PPs, and a chance to repeat the process in the next scenario.

I'm seriously waiting for another turn based strategy war game that's satisfying to play and rewards good tactics. This game just frustrates and angers me with never ending waves of enemy units.

[Dragoon.]

You should lower the difficulty and maybe adjust the prestige slider until it fit your taste.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

I'm seriously waiting for another turn based strategy war game that's satisfying to play and rewards good tactics. This game just frustrates and angers me with never ending waves of enemy units.

Have you played Time of Fury?

- BNC

[joe6778]

I haven't played Time of Fury. Can you describe the gameplay?

[joe6778]

Strange as it seems I quite like Kremenchug.

My SE units go to defend possible landing sites - beating up boats is a good safe way to add an extra star for your brand new SE Panther. They get a pair of strategic bombers and a mobile AA unit for company - the mobile AA weakens the fighter cover so your own fighter(s) can clear them faster. The combined force clears the boats fast enough to allow some of the SE tanks to head to Kremenchug itself after a few turns, where they can bolster the defence or launch a counter attack.

I usually upgrade all of the reserve units to infantry for the better defence. Even pre-43 infantry have GD8, and work OK if you are mainly interested in holding up units rather than damaging them. The raid over the river for the artillery units starts OK, and for me the big danger is to think that it's going well and pushing on too far. I learnt the hard way that the best way to meet the counter attacks is when freshly re-supplied, well positioned and backed by artillery rather than dispersed over a broad deep front with only 2 ammo left and a few strength down. Checking the objectives in the message box every few turns helps refresh that little voice warning you to be careful.

Remember too that there's several experienced 85s around as well as a lot of air units and a few SPAAG 90 so your air units should probably be defending your ground troops and finishing off damaged or suppressed enemy rather than looking for targets - another reason for sending my strat bombers to sea is to avoid flak damage early on. I would probably only bring Rudel and leave other tac bombers behind for this one. His main job is to destroy any suppressed AA units and to help clear a path for any damaged units that need space to pull back.

For teh artillery hunt, I find one or two Flammpanzers can be helpful for quickly finishing off suppressed artillery, conscript units and other soft targets with the 140% RoF and ignoring entrenchment. They are very vulnerable to air attack and enemy tanks so need some care, but are useful if treated as fast moving pioneers. I often team them with a Wurfrahmen and sdkfz10/4 - suppress, destroy, scare off aircraft and move on. A supporting Kradschutzen can work quite well - a bit outclassed in 43, but the 3 spotting picks up supporting artillery and nearby tanks in time to avoid severe problems. Krads are quite handy in this role if you have an infantry unit with a spotting hero. Plus if you lose a krad, they work nearly as well green as when experienced and are cheap compared with the other units.

It seems the only way to save my units is to settle for a MV.

I was able to hold all but two victory cities and retreat all my units across the river. Then I was able to destroy any Russians trying to cross.

The problem is I only earned 300 PPs for the MV.

[ThvN]

The problem is I only earned 300 PPs for the MV.

That's because of the softcap; because you have an expensive core, your earnings are reduced to only 20%, which means you are only getting 320pp. It might be a good idea to try and adjust the 'prestige' slider or play with the 1.14 ruleset (through the advanced difficulty settings). Maybe modify the gamefiles so that you will recieve more 'normal' prestige amounts (which is what I am experimenting with). In my opinion the softcap hasn't been balanced enough yet for the later GC's, I hope the next beta will evaluate the effects better.

The DV's are usually very expensive to 'win' and usually give almost the same prestige (Kremenchug has 1600pp for MV and 2000 for DV, so you'll get only 400 for a DV because of the softcap).

[joe6778]

Good information to know about the soft cap but that's not the only problem with this game:

I continued on to Kiev 43 scenario and these are things that actually happened that really pissed me off and makes me think of moving on to something less frustrating with which I can occupy my time:

*INF defending in cities getting decimated by armor attacking from adjacent city hexes with little or no damage to themselves
*INF attacking Russian armor in cities and doing little or no damage
*Mountain INF reduced from 11 to 3 in one attack by a paratrooper while defending in a mountain hex
*Russian fighters reducing FW190s in one attack by 7 strength when it takes 5 FWs to reduce or destroy ONE Russian fighter
*Fw190 with heroes destroyed by Russian fighters with little or no damage to themselves
*Russian paratroopers are almost invulnerable to everything- even when fully suppressed
*Overstrength AA units doing little or no damage to bombers
*Russian armor attacking 88s with ART support in cities and doing damage with little or no damage to themselves

I played to turn 10 but there's no way I can win a DV and my PP is down to 600. Even a DV would mean little anyway. Obviously the AI has an unlimited amount of PP to replace and create Elite units.

Strategy and tactics tips just don't work against these odds. I might as well surrender since every scenario after this is more of the same or worse. What's the point if I make it to the end anyway? It all ends the same way for the Germans.

[Tarrak]

Most of the problems you described sounds to me like flukes with the dices. The Random Number Generator in the game on default settings can be merciless at times. You either accept it and consider it a fact that in war nothing is certain and everything can go wrong or reduce the randomness in advanced options.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

I haven't played Time of Fury. Can you describe the gameplay?

First of all, here's the product page: www.slitherine.com/games/time_of_fury

Basically it is a grand strategy game that covers all of Europe. You choose what nation(s) you would like to play, and from there, basically control the entire nation's war effort. There is some minor forms of diplomacy, mostly limited to declaring war, Attempting to gain an Ally, or launching coup d e'tats. Units appear to be a similar scale to those of PzC, but are limited to only a few classes:

Infantry - weakest, slowest, cheapest class. Doesn't take movement penalties from forests and possibly mountains, but does from mud or snow

Motorised - weak, cheap and fast class. Useful for taking towns, but limited beyond there.

Tank - strong, fast and expensive class. Main weapon of attack.

Airborne - Paratroopers. Really weak. Also only avaliable in Divisons.

Fighter - Air unit used to attack other air units. Can intercept bombers within range

Tac Bomber - Air unit that can only attack ground and Naval units. Very powerful against strong enemy units, but useless against strength 0s and 1s

Strategic Bomber - Air unit that can reduce production capabilities of towns. I personally don't use them at all.

as well as Naval units, which I won't go in to.

Infantry, Motorised and Tank units can be purchased as either divisions or corps. A corps is roughly 3x the strength of a division, as well as costing ~3x as much. If you purchase a division, it will be possible to upgrade to a corps later.

Upgrades can be researched for a rough cost of 150 'PP' (Production Points), which may be paid up to 3 times to increase speed of research. If the full 450 is paid, it will take about 12 months. There are 5 levels, with most units in 1939 being level 1.

Beyond this, youtube and the game tutorials will be more useful.

- BNC

[Resolute]

I retried this three more times.

I have no trouble holding off the landing on the north coast: they're mostly conscript units. The SE city is also very easy to hold with three or four units. I'm also able to hold off the attacks while holding all the victory cities until turn 15.

Turn 15 begins the last major Russian counter attack with many more air units and many very heavy tanks, guard units, artillery, and cavalry. It's ridiculous how many units you're up against here- almost every hex has a unit in it. This really pisses me off. Up to this point I actually think that I can survive with my core and about 4500 PPs. But it's just not happening.

Settling for a MV brings me back to my previous complaint. A DV here should be worth thousands of PPs based on what you're up against. Instead you wind up with a battered core, a couple of thousand PPs, and a chance to repeat the process in the next scenario.

I'm seriously waiting for another turn based strategy war game that's satisfying to play and rewards good tactics. This game just frustrates and angers me with never ending waves of enemy units.

Regarding Kremenchug (and that also applies to many other scenarios) the AI is very bad at moveing damaged units from the front line. So instead fighting your way through the incoming masses, damage them slightly without finishing them off and then just block their movement. The 2nd wave comes with some serious hard hitting tanks but if they can't get through, they won't do you much harm. You can easily hold your objectives on that map without sacrificing too many of your own units that way.