line of sight

[spotteddog]

Anyone know why a plantation of olive trees blocks line of sight but a village doesn't? Also forest and plantation say "troops beyond cannot be seen" but hills don't. Is this covered by "troops beyond a crest line are only visible within 1 MU or do hills not block line of sight? Bemused!
HH

[kevinj]

Troops on your side of the hill can be seen. Once they are the other side of the crest line they can't be seen from beyond 1 MU. They don't have to be on the hill, if they are on the other side of the crest line, and you don't have a line of sight that doesn't go through the hill, you can't see them. So hills do block line of sight, but not the same way as forests or olive groves.

[spotteddog]

Villages?
HH

[marshalney2000]

All villages of this period had wide boulevards to facilitate artillery shooting down them at TYW German Horse trying to hide behind the village.
John

[kevinj]

I think the kind of villages represented in Fog are sufficiently small that they would not conceal large bodies of troops.

[marshalney2000]

Sounds logical.
John

[spotteddog]

Hmmmm. Wide boulevards to too small to hide a BG of commanded shot. Quite a variation yet still able to achieve consensus. Wonderful thing this FOG R. I take it we are all agreed villages don't block sight then?
HH

[marshalney2000]

Ah that would be the small two element BG of commanded shot that was not worried enough to apply a -1 to it's cohesion test when clattered by a large unit of pike and shot. Besides the commanded shot were actually having a fiesta in the large piazza in the centre of the village which made them an ideal target for artillery who ranged in on this obvious aiming point.
Never mind good to see you reading the rules.

[quackstheking]

Sorry, I can't see how a village won't block the line of sight, to enable artillery to target troops beyond the village. Even if we are talking small, low houses, they are still higher than the average man and yet artillery cannot target troops beyond either friendly or enemy units, so I fail to see how it can see and target troops beyond a village.

Surely this is a case of just because the rules don't say it can't be done, doesn't mean it can! Some common sense has to apply!

Don

[marshalney2000]

Don, I agree in principle but where does it say this in the rules? In fact it explicity states what terrain blocks line of sight for troops beyond and a village is not shown.
John

[quackstheking]

Then logically that should be one for the errata unless that is what Richard meant but would seem illogical against what does block los!

Don

[MatteoPasi]

Village block LOS as long as you are in ambush within it

[spotteddog]

I think Don is right. It is arguablly quite obvious that villages and hills block line of sight. It's not so obvious that vineyards and plantations would block line of sight so the rules have to say so. Can we all agree to play it this way?
HH

[marshalney2000]

I don't think we have the right to draw that conclusion. We play by the rules as printed unless officially amended.
If we want a change then we need an amendment. Exactly the same as the HF versus medium foot we are also discussing. A few of us think the rules as printed are wrong on that one too but unless amendments are made I will just have to go with the rules particularly in competitions where it soecifies playing using the rules with official amendments.
In any case, Hunter you can only pick a village if you win the initiative which is something with your command structure that you only rarely do.
John

[marshalney2000]

Taking the line of sight point further. Let us look at a situation where a unit occupying a village fires at an enemy unit within 2 inches and the enemy can of course fire back. Now as it happens to the flank of the unit outside the village is a BG of artillery but this is four inches away. As the rules stand, the artillery can never fire at the village which to me seems ridiculous as in real live the battery would automatically open up in support of the unit attacking the village. The artillery is clearly aware of the presence of the unit in the village due to their firing. This should also apply to units in woods etc who betray their position by firing. I would be quite happy for these units to receive a cover modifier.
I am proposing an amended rule not a let's all agree here.
John

[spotteddog]

is it just don and me who intend to play with our sensible hats on then?
hh

[marshalney2000]

You can decide all you want but when you are Britcon and one of your opponents is not as impressed with your executive power over the tournament rules as you are and refers to the umpire and the printed rules then I suspect your views will be rather irrelevant.
I was not to clear from your earlier post as to the part of the world your ruling will apply and how you intend to communicate it to the rest of the UK, Europe and he rest of the world. Interestingly enough players from all these areas will be at Britcon.
By the way Don is also of the opinion that HF units impacting MF units only with their MF components should create a -1 on a losing Cohesion Test. Are you accepting this too.
You appear to be basing your rationale for visibility behind villages not being mentioned in the rules because it was so obvious to everyone but the authors specifically mention woods which I would have thought was equally if not more obvious.
On a serious note, it is worth looking at the definition of two of the main terrain types namely:
Forest - DENSE woodland or jungle - sounds pretty visibilityrestricting to me.
Village - an area of buildings and sheds with a road running through. - mm sounds a lot less intense than the Forest. Good if youbdisperse and hide in the buildings but not so good at hiding dense masses of cavalry, pike etc manoeuvring behind a few sheds!! Presumably some of the area would also be given over to vegetable patches etc.
Perhaps RBS and Nick have given more thought to the smallness and spread out nature of 16th century villages than we gave them credit for.
John

[spotteddog]

A balanced and well reasoned argument as always John. I am persuaded and will play it that villages do not block line of sight. Thank you for helping me see the sheds from the trees.

As for MF vs mixed units I think the consensus was the mixed units count as heavy for units testing against them unless turned to the flank. Again there are arguments for and against but I have listened attentively to the debate between the great ones and accepted the wisdom handed down.

HH

[marshalney2000]

Very good Hunter. Sheds from the trees - I will use that one myself and of course claim credit.
John

[spotteddog]

No change there then .......