Is a second rank base in melee

[hammy]

Looking at the charging into contact rules a charge that is not a propper flank charge is allowed to hit the flank of a base that is not in melee. The question is is a second rank base in melee (yes to all the pedants out there I realise that some troops only fight in one rank...)?

On reading the charging rules it isn't clear but in the shooting rules there is a reference to 1st or 2nd rank bases in melee.

I suspect that therfore a second rank base is really in melee so can't be charged in the flank edge other than by a propper flank charge.

[sagji]

I am not sure that is a good definition - the shooting definition says "fighting" while the impact says "in melee", also the shooting has a limitation of 2 ranks which implies that more than 2 ranks can be fighting.
A better comparision might be feeding extra bases into melee - where you can move bases that aren't providing a dice or PoA to a position where they do.

The result is you can charge the 2nd rank of Knights, but not the 4th rank of steady Pike.

[marshalney2000]

I think the simple answer is if the rank is contributing a dice or a poa then it cannot be charged.

[hazelbark]

How about the situation where two enemy BGs are charging a single friendly BG.

So the F1 refers to 1st rank of friendly BG the F2 the 2nd rank.
E1 is Enemy BG 1 and E2 is enemy BG 2

E1E1E1..E2E2

F1F1F1
F2F2F2


So if both enemy charge and E1 moves first contacting all the F1s. The E2 charges and can wheel and strike the endmost F2. (note this is not a flank attack)

Can that F2 fight E2 in the impact phase?

If yes, then in the conforming phase E2 will move into overlap. I believe.

[sagji]

Yes - F2 is not (yet) in melee - because E1 charged this impact phase F is not yet in melee.
If E1 had started the phase in contact then it would depent on the troup type of F1 - if it is Elephants, Knights, Chariots, Artillery, or battle wagons then F2 can be charged, otherwise it can't.

[rbodleyscott]

This discussion might be less confusing to newbies if it was made clear that what you are talking about is charging into contact with the flank of an enemy BG when the charge does not qualify as a flank/rear charge. (Last bullet, P.57). At least I assume that is what you are talking about.

Would you mind editing your initial post, Hammy, to make this clear?

[hazelbark]

Yes - F2 is not (yet) in melee - because E1 charged this impact phase F is not yet in melee.
If E1 had started the phase in contact then it would depent on the troup type of F1 - if it is Elephants, Knights, Chariots, Artillery, or battle wagons then F2 can be charged, otherwise it can't.

Well my question was not yet in melee.

I presume you are refereing in the back half of your comment to you can't charge (except in legal flank charge) elements in a melee already.

[rogerg]

We need a defintition list for the FAQ.

Base in contact: has an enemy front edge touching it or its own front edge in contact with an enemy.
Base in melee is any of:
(1) in contact
(2) entitled to a dice in melee as a second rank such as cavalry but not knights
(3) contributing to the POA's of a base with its front edge in contact such as a third or fourth rank of pike
BG in melee: has any of its bases in melee.

Overlaps and bases behind them will be in melee as described above, except where there are specific exceptions in the rules.

I have written that off the top of my head without having the rules at hand. Consider it is a working list to start from.

[pbrandon]

I haven't really thought through how much of a complicating factor (if at all) this is, but what about 2nd/3rd rank shooters in the impact phase?

Paul

[sagji]

We need a defintition list for the FAQ.

Base in contact: has an enemy front edge touching it or its own front edge in contact with an enemy.
Base in melee is any of:
(1) in contact
(2) entitled to a dice in melee as a second rank such as cavalry but not knights
(3) contributing to the POA's of a base with its front edge in contact such as a third or fourth rank of pike
BG in melee: has any of its bases in melee.

Overlaps and bases behind them will be in melee as described above, except where there are specific exceptions in the rules.

I have written that off the top of my head without having the rules at hand. Consider it is a working list to start from.

One problem is that this puts a base in melee immediatly it is contacted, which prevents some "simultaneous" charges.
Also a base may contact in the impact phase but not end up in melee as the conforming may reposition it to not be an overlap.
I don't think that BG is in melee untill it, or its opponent, has conformed or failed to do so.

[rogerg]

The impact phase is not a problem as far as I can see. If "Simultaneous" charges are precisely that, then the definitions of in contact or melee apply to the situation before the chargers are moved. We are concerned about only what is a legal place for a charge to hit. It is quite reasonable for the front and side edge of a base to be hit in the same impact phase by different charging BG's. This is little different from two bases from the same BG impacting on the corner and side edge of a single base, a quite common occurence.

Conforming occurs immediately after impact combat resolution. A base in contact may well then become only an overlap. The conformed state is what applies for deciding which bases may be shot at or contacted during the next impact phase.

Paul's question about impact phase shooters is irrelevant. Whether these bases count as in melee does not matter. The question would arise during the resolution of the impact phase combat. When that is over the above definitions apply. The definitions only need to be applied when bases are about to be moved into contact with them or shoot at them. By definition this is not happening during the combat resolution step.

[hammy]

OK,

From an umpire call today....

P: are pikemen who have just broken their opposing impact foot in the pike players melee phase. N.B. they are five ranks deep.
I: are a second line of impact foot who have just been burst through by the routers
C: are the potentially cheesy flank edge chargers.

The pursuit has contacted the enemy BG so the combat needs to be fought in the impact phase of the impact foot.

Code: Select all

PP
PP
PP
PP
PP
IICC
IICC

Can BG C which is in corner to corner contact with the pike 'charge' into contact with the edge of a base of the pike?

Can it do so if it hits the 3rd rank?

Can it do so if it hits the 5th rank?

If it does hit the 5th rank what are the POAs??

FWIW in the end I decided that the 1st-4th rank of pike are in melee and can't be charged but that I could not think of any reason that the 5th rank wasn't. I therefore allowed the charge and as far as I can see the 5th rank of pike doesn't get any POAs...

Comments?

[rtaylor]

I dimly recall that a BG cannot wheel to charge into an enemy BG's flank if it starts within 1 MU of that enemy BG. That tells me that C must wheel in the coming maneuver phase before it can charge into P's flank in the following impact phase.

[nikgaukroger]

I dimly recall that a BG cannot wheel to charge into an enemy BG's flank if it starts within 1 MU of that enemy BG.

That is correct.

[hammy]

I dimly recall that a BG cannot wheel to charge into an enemy BG's flank if it starts within 1 MU of that enemy BG.

That is correct.

Actually only nearly correct.

The rules say "For a charge to qualify as a flank charge, it cannot include a wheel unless the charging battle group starts its move with its nearest point at least 1 MU away from the battle group being charged" In this case the charger wasn't trying for a flank charge just to get another impact dice on an unengaged base.

[rogerg]

Why does the fifth rank get no POA's?. The contact is legal on the fifth rank because it is not in the melee. The cavalry are not flank charging, so the melee factors are no different to what they would be if the pike had not been frontally engaged and the cavalry had hit the front of the file.

The impact will be one base to one base and the cavalry will conform to an overlap position.

[hammy]

Why does the fifth rank get no POA's?. The contact is legal on the fifth rank because it is not in the melee. The cavalry are not flank charging, so the melee factors are no different to what they would be if the pike had not been frontally engaged and the cavalry had hit the front of the file.

The impact will be one base to one base and the cavalry will conform to an overlap position.

Pike get a POA for 3 ranks of pike and a POA for a 4th rank. I have to admit I assumed that this means 2 and 3 supporting ranks respectively. At present I can't find anything in the rules to confirm either way. If the pike counted as full dept it would be less of a problem but still silly.

I realise that after the impact the other BG would wheel to overlap.

[rogerg]

If the impact foot were not present and the two wide cavalry BG charged into the pike, the left front base hitting the front pike element corner, the right front base stepping forward into the 3rd rank (or any rank for that matter, 5th if it could reach) of the pike, then the combat would have two bases in contact each and the pike would count as 4 ranks in each case. There is a photo of this type of contact from several months ago somewhere with an RBS comment IIRC. The situation we are looking at is essentially no different. When a non flank charging base impacts a second or deeper rank base it is treated no differently to a base contacting the front. In this particular cbase there is only the flank contacting base, but that should not mean it gets treated differently.

[hammy]

[quote="rogerg"]If the impact foot were not present and the two wide cavalry BG charged into the pike, the left front base hitting the front pike element corner, the right front base stepping forward into the 3rd rank (or any rank for that matter, 5th if it could reach) of the pike, then the combat would have two bases in contact each and the pike would count as 4 ranks in each case. There is a photo of this type of contact from several months ago somewhere with an RBS comment IIRC. The situation we are looking at is essentially no different. When a non flank charging base impacts a second or deeper rank base it is treated no differently to a base contacting the front. In this particular cbase there is only the flank contacting base, but that should not mean it gets treated differently.[/quote]

I have to admit that that is one interpretation but I can't find anything in the rules to say that. I can see that if pike only got the full POA if you hit the front rank base everyone would work like mad to charge the 2nd or third base which is just a touch on the cheesy.

Can anyone point me to a rule on this? If not it probably needs an FAQ entry as it is far from obvious.

[sgtsteiner]

Hi Hammy

I can see that if pike only got the full POA if you hit the front rank base everyone would work like mad to charge the 2nd or third base which is just a touch on the cheesy.

If 4 full ranks of Pike count as being in melee and/or contributing POAs and are then counted as 'immune' to non-flank charge contacts would this not also be a problem ? ie surely attacking the flanks (wether 'full-on' or not) is exactly what one wants to do against a phalanx ?

A tricky one but maybe not a huge issue as it will not be a 'proper' flank contact so the BG on flank will have to conform to overlap posistion, ie its only relevant for Impact combat.

Assuming I am understanding the query/rules correctly

Gary