Kharkov Campaign

[Benpark]

I've been playing the latest beta a bit, and it's looking quite good. The campaigns look very interesting so far.

I like the linked campaigns, so I started the Kharkov one. Will there be there be a similar one for the Soviet side?

The first mission in the Kharkov campaign is very tough. There are a lot of varying objectives to stay atop of. That can be fine, but it seems that this is restricting some interesting scenario possibilities- particularly in holding the objectives. As it stands now, you can't lose even one of the "frontline" objectives (hospital, HQ, bridge, and maybe one more?). If this were alleviated by one, the Soviets would cause enough mayhem, as it would mean that the line would be breached, and some sort of maneuvering would be necessary to plug that part of the line. It would feel more like a tactical problem, and less like a restriction in losing any one of these 3 objectives (hospital should probably be held). Evacuation would be naturally difficult to pull off with Soviets roaming the city.

The amount of Soviet forces, plus the having to evacuate put enough additional pressure on.

Besides that, really well done scenario- great map!

[Benpark]

OK, it's overall better in the new version- but for one thing.....

SPOILER....


The Soviet attack on the South Road objective is impossible given the briefing and if the player holds the two bridges. The player holds the bridge objectives, yet there are still Soviet forces that materialize. This gives the player 1 turn to respond, which is nearly impossible given the size of the map and timing of the additional attack. the other lines of advance are enough to make a compelling, challenging scenario without resorting to what feels like gamey methods to keep the player on their toes. It was an irritating development to hold the bridges and still see Soviet forces on the other side- not frogmen, but tanks! At least allude to other fighting on the player's flanks that could compromise the South side of the city- or just remove the magical arrival altogether.

I really like the idea of the linked campaigns, but having to replay the same scenario multiple times to advance can be frustrating to the point of setting it aside for good. I'd rather see moderately challenging missions over a longer span of time that keeps the player managing a set force than ones where the player has to deal with puzzle solutions to scenarios.

[pipfromslitherine]

That 'need to replay' frustration is why we tend to only use carryover sparingly. Some people love it, others not quite so much!

Having said that, if there are mission(s) which seem to unreasonably require perfection in order to allow future missions to be doable, then please let us know. It's a fine line between tough and unfair!

Cheers

Pip

[Benpark]

Pip, thanks for the reply.

BA straddles the line in the best possible way between "game" and "wargame" for me. I never had the time to accumulate a table-top army, so BA does the trick on my computer. I am far more of a "wargamer", and hope for things to tend towards that edge of the fence. The issue for me with this particular mission is the fact that the arrival of the forces in question come from out of "nowhere" as far as the map is concerned. The line shifts too far towards "game" too much for me because of it, and I lose interest as the enemy seems to have cheated it's way to an unearned victory at the last minute. I can play the mission again with this knowledge in mind, but that becomes less interesting with each play-through.

It's a very fine and tricky line indeed, and whoever did this scenario did a great job with balancing the other aspects.

[Benpark]

That said- this campaign is really one of the best in terms of the maps I've seen. I also appreciate the fact that the campaign is rooted in an actual engagement (even though it's fictionalized somewhat in the missions).

Rather than dissuade you from the carryover system- I prefer it! I'm just pushing for the one particular issue to be used with restraint.

[AndrewGardner]

OK, it's overall better in the new version- but for one thing.....

SPOILER....


The Soviet attack on the South Road objective is impossible given the briefing and if the player holds the two bridges. The player holds the bridge objectives, yet there are still Soviet forces that materialize. This gives the player 1 turn to respond, which is nearly impossible given the size of the map and timing of the additional attack. the other lines of advance are enough to make a compelling, challenging scenario without resorting to what feels like gamey methods to keep the player on their toes. It was an irritating development to hold the bridges and still see Soviet forces on the other side- not frogmen, but tanks! At least allude to other fighting on the player's flanks that could compromise the South side of the city- or just remove the magical arrival altogether.

To clarify, is this also in reference to the first mission in the Kharkov Campaign? When I played this for the first time, I was caught off guard by the Soviet attacks at the rail bridge in the SE based on the briefing, but I did not see any Soviet units appear on the SW side of the river in version 0.1.6.

[Benpark]

Yes- there are two T-70's IIRC that appear with about 4 turns left. I'm not sure where they come from. I have uninterrupted line of sight to both bridges (and don't lose them as objectives), so they shouldn't have come from the north side of the map(unless there is a hidden ford somewhere).

[AndrewGardner]

Yes- there are two T-70's IIRC that appear with about 4 turns left. I'm not sure where they come from. I have uninterrupted line of sight to both bridges (and don't lose them as objectives), so they shouldn't have come from the north side of the map(unless there is a hidden ford somewhere).

Okay, I think this may be a logic error rather than an attempt to cheat the player.

[Benpark]

I just had a loss for no apparent reason given the victory conditions on this one. I also had T-60's pop up with 3-4 turns to go, entering on the South Road objective. At no point did the Soviet AI take any of the VL, but I still was "overrun", and could not proceed to the next mission.

I'm attaching a save for right around when the T-60's appear- how do we get files to the right person for this type of bug?

Note that the Soviet AI doesn't have any VL captured, then play to the end (and hold the VL). It should be a loss, which is at odds with what the victory conditions are.

[AndrewGardner]

I assume you have had 12 of your units escape by the South Road at this point?

[Benpark]

Just rechecked- I probably missed getting the last unit out. I did this time, and it worked. The campaign progresses!

The T-60's still seem unnecessary, though.

[celt2002]

Crossing the river scenario - some of the soviet tanks which appear round about turns 3/4 aren't properly defined and have very fetching metalic "compound eye" camouflage!