Its a question of transport!! or two.

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Bonesoul
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Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by Bonesoul »

Its obvious, but that's often the best place to start, Infantry without transport is slow, Pioneers and Grenadiers very slow, artillery (the non self propelled variety) without transport might get to Moscow in 1961 but not 1941. So they need some wheel's or maybe tracks. That said my questions :):-

1) With an eye on the prestige soft cap rules and saving prestige for that rainy day in 1943 and later, what should we do. Early on trucks are clearly a must, blitzkrieg just wont work with Shanks's Pony (on foot for those who don't get the term). Pre GC41 there is limited need for Half-Track's, I would think Vyazma is the first scenario you would really suffer if still in trucks, the mud is where they start to shine (there's a question coming honest!). But late GC41 is where the average prestige soft cap rules first start to be seen and hence here is the question.

The basic Half-Track for 100 pres Vs. the swanky 200 pres version? All I can see as the benefit from the 200 version is move 8 instead of 6 aand about half a pint of fuel. For a number of reasons in starting to think there is no reason to go for the 200pres version. Panzers in general only have move 5, 6 at the outside so the 100 pres version can keep up, and combined arms seem still the way to go, so is the 8 move of any value. Also if I have say 12 infantry, artillery and Pak type AT deployed using the 100 version rather than the 200 saves 1,200 prestige from the total used by the soft cap mechanics, allowing for better quality units or more over-strength, a str12 artillery with a 100HT has roughly the same prestige footprint as a str10 with a 200HT. Your views?

2) Paratroopers and maybe other units. Ok, its a bit nit picky but unless I'm getting something wrong a para without a truck can be deployed as air or ground version, but as soon as you buy them a truck you cant air drop them? It seems to me a bit counter intuitive that if you want to air drop them you have to remove the truck, after all you are going to use them as air troops early on mainly where its a pre planned offensive. It should be more like, "Oi mate, your going to be jumping out of a plane today so you better leave your truck behind this time", that's to say shouldn't you have the choice, especially with para's that if you set them up for air deployment they leave their trucks behind automatically that scenario but you don't have to manually remove them to make them air droppable? This leads to the obvious question with the implementation of the soft cap rules should you be able to choose to deploy other units with or without transport in a specific scenario? Say in Streets of Moscow, would the infantry really have taken their trucks along for house to house fighting?

3) And lastly a sort of transport question. Having watched the AAR videos for Eben-Emael and Crete Naval, I saw the pre positioned para's start on the ground in the video's but for me when I play the scenaro's (and ive tried all sorts but failed to land them before turn one) they start in the air. Is this just a change as a result of patch's or maybe the videos being based on Deducter's mod,or am I doing something wrong? I have to say, the difference between being able to attack with the para's first round or having to drop them and them being free targets as partially suppressed units for the AI on its turn one, makes a big difference, especially in the Crete scenario, with them starting on the ground you can effectively suppress or destroy the central AA gun on turn one, when you have to drop them you haven't touched the AA and will be lucky if they aren't battered wrecks before they can fire a shot in anger.

Cheers
Bonesoul
Tarrak
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by Tarrak »

The 200 prestige halftrack is a total overkill and waste of prestige that a sure thing. Some people here even advocate not buying any transports for the 3 movement infantry. I personally disagree with it. I never manage with just 3 movement to keep my infantry in position and they always lag behind which slows me down. I don't think the little prestige gain is worth the hassle. Trucks vs the 6 movement halftracks is s difficult topic. I an personally, after over 3 years, of playing the game still not decided which are the better solution really. I guess in the long run it doesn't matter much.

The good old paratroopers with trucks discussion. It is a valid one and it keep coming up again and again. There was a few ideas already proposed how to alleviate the problem but as far i remember none of the ideas was really doable without a quite major rewrite of the game code and considering the small development team i am afraid it won't happen anytime soon if at all. It's a flaw in the game we just have to accept for now.

When deploying paratroopers you can use the ground/air switch button (Tab key). When it's in the air setting you will deploy them in the plane if there are air transports available in the scenario. If you switch to the ground mode you will plant the paratroopers on the ground. When you select the paratroopers it automatically switches to air mode so you need to use the button/press tab every time you want to deploy a paratrooper unit on the ground.
Bonesoul
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by Bonesoul »

Hi Tarrak.

Thanks for the response, its too bad that I bought 200 Half-Tracks before I started thinking about the issues especially soft cap and now it would cost me 100 prestige to upgrade them back to the lower quality ones :(. I don't suppose I could get a refund of prestige for downgrade of equipment like I do when I disband a captured tank?

The no transport for 3 move infantry question you raised is an interesting one, atm I'm just about to start GC42 and have a feeling things will need to change. In effect from GC39 through almost the end of GC41 its quite easy to pick up potentially bad habits. With less deadly AI units, a lot of them hold position passive, its quite often fine to charge ahead with units, especially in Half-Tracks and not be punished too much even if you make a mistake, it also means towed artillery with their higher ammo are in general preferred to self propelled. Come late GC41 and especially GC42-45, your asking to get butchered, I'm sure its one way that players not expecting the change with the eastern front get caught out and see an apparent difficulty jump.

Starting to think about what the real eastern front will entail, assuming there is any place for non tanks, the one absolute is that units should never be left in transport mode, on the wrong terrain or without artillery support unless fully screened by deployed units. This would logically force a shift towards only moving infantry 3 spaces most of the time (so why have any transport and help yourself with the soft cap) and also a move from towed to self propelled artillery, at last for any offensive scenarios, as you want them to be able to provide suppression fire and supporting you units which they cant do if in transport mode. Obviously in defensive scenarios where ground would be give slowly if at all, towed artillery with generally better ammo damage and suppression, still has a place (as artillery are one of the easiest units to hit the Exp cap on should you develop more so later you can choose between experienced units of either type dependant on the scenario). I'll revisit it when I'm in GC44 and desperate to halt the seemingly unstoppable Russian horde's from reaching the Fatherland.

In you response to my initial post you covered how to deploy para's as airborne or foot sloggers and the minor irritation you cant drop them again once you have bought a truck with out srapping it (50 prestige, a whole minor flag lost), but my third issue I don't think you covered. The auxiliary para's you get in Eban-Emael and Crete Naval scenarios are in Deducter's AAR videos already on the ground and ready to attack when you start turn one, when I have played them on my brand new Steam version they start turn one in the air and have to be dropped that turn making them unable to attack and partially suppressed, vulnerable to AI attack. I just wasn't sure if tha was as a result of patch change, Deducter changing it in his mod or that I'm missing something and should be able to get them on the ground ready to attack at start turn one. If you could clear this up it would be great, because as I said not having them on the ground at the start of turn one makes things a lot more difficult.

Thanks
Bonesul
Tarrak
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by Tarrak »

Well to cover for your mistake with the 200pp transports you could always downgrade them to the one you want now and then use the prestige cheat to refund your lost prestige back. If you don't want to use the cheats there is no way i am afraid.

About your Ebon-Emeal and Crete Naval questions: This is how Ebon-Emeal looks for me at the deployment phase:
Image
As you can see the units are in the gliders and must land first. I am not 100% sure but as the gliders was introduced in some later patch after the DLC40 was created i think this possibly got changed by the overhaul of the DLCs when the Megapack was released. Same could be true for the Crete Naval scenario.
Egge
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by Egge »

I leave a few infantry units without any attached transport unit. I stick with standard infantry units anyhow and find 3 mp enough. The turn limit in most scenarios is not very strict and I also need a few turns to soften up entrenched enemy units. So I don't find it too bad if my infantry doesn't always keep up with my advance.

Also, I tend to air-transport a lot of units and that doesn't work with attached trucks. That feature is *very* nice. There is always an unoccupied airfield close to the front for you to occupy.
Bonesoul
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by Bonesoul »

Egge wrote:I leave a few infantry units without any attached transport unit. I stick with standard infantry units anyhow and find 3 mp enough. The turn limit in most scenarios is not very strict and I also need a few turns to soften up entrenched enemy units. So I don't find it too bad if my infantry doesn't always keep up with my advance.

Also, I tend to air-transport a lot of units and that doesn't work with attached trucks. That feature is *very* nice. There is always an unoccupied airfield close to the front for you to occupy.
Now that's why I love forum's, you always get an insight into something you thought you knew all you needed to, in my case the effect of attached vehicles on air transport options for non Para units. In this case it makes the possible Para exploit in the Vyazma scenario far more understandable, once you have grabbed the airfield with a real Para, you can then transport other units up there one per turn, providing they are air transportable (so its muddy pah :)). I've just had one of those Eureka moments!!

So one question would be how do you know if a unit is Airfield to Airfield transportable at any given time? Is it only infantry and towed artillery without transport, so long as they are landed at the airfield rather than droped are trucks ok but Half-Tracks not, or are all units transportable so long as they are landed at an air field rather than dropped? Trying to be logical I can see that Tiger tanks would be nigh on impossible to air lift but PZr II Flamm's, recon units or lighter SP artillery?

Cheers
Bone
BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by BiteNibbleChomp »

It depends on if certain air transports are available - the Ju52 can only take inf, but I think the Me323 can take some tanks and other stuff.

- BNC
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captainjack
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by captainjack »

I rarely use half tracks now, as they don't seem to offer much benefit over trucks - the air defence and attack can be handy, but don't offer a big advantage although I do sometimes have one or two for poor ground. Another point is that after about 42, most enemy tanks have much higher HA than SA, so if caught in a truck you might actually be better off than in a hard target half track.

Currently most of my units with 3 move or better walk, while slower units get trucks. I rarely have major problems getting troops to where they are needed and the slightly slower pace seems to encourage better tactics - especially once you get move heroes on supporting units like AA and Artillery.

The fast halftracks can be useful for bridge engineers as they improve the chance of getting the bridgies to the rivers when you want them. I have tried fast half tracks on artillery but ended up with a few too many getting ahead of the screen that was supposed to be protecting them - an expensive mistake, especially for hero units in the days before reform units was available.
Egge
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by Egge »

Bonesoul wrote:Now that's why I love forum's, you always get an insight into something you thought you knew all you needed to, in my case the effect of attached vehicles on air transport options for non Para units. In this case it makes the possible Para exploit in the Vyazma scenario far more understandable, once you have grabbed the airfield with a real Para, you can then transport other units up there one per turn, providing they are air transportable (so its muddy pah :)). I've just had one of those Eureka moments!!

So one question would be how do you know if a unit is Airfield to Airfield transportable at any given time?
Bone
You don't even need to own the airfield you would like to transport your units to. Just like units embarked on trains can capture enemy cities, you can airlift normal ground units to enemy airfields and disembark there. This is really useful if the weather in muddy as air movement is not affected by weather. Personally I find this a bit cheesy but I can't resist the temptation to use that exploit. :D

You can see the number of air transports available by hovering your mouse over the embark button. The tool will show the number of trains and transport planes you can still use.
Last edited by Egge on Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
BiteNibbleChomp
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by BiteNibbleChomp »

Wait? Trains can cap cities!?

Never knew that

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Bonesoul
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by Bonesoul »

I found this thread with a lot of discussion on H-Track Vs. truck so thought it was worth linking to consolidate the thoughts on the subject.

viewtopic.php?f=121&t=48379

I'm now at Stalingrad 42 and my current view is that some form of transport should be on all infantry, towed artillery etc. Personally I have gone for the cheap H/T and aren't finding prestige a great issue at all despite my run through being on FM difficulty (I'd though you got less prestige at this level but its still 100%, its slower exp that's the main issue. I consider the more aggressive AI to make things easier in some ways, hard to lure a passive AI onto ground of your choosing.).

My logic is on the bigger maps a few turns of mud and trucks are way less flexible than H/T so for the extra 50 pres per unit I will keep the flexibility when the weather decides to make things difficult. As has been said by several people the expensive H/T is just crazy with the soft cap rules and more expensive replacements. The reason all my units have transport is because at this stage many scenarios are still somewhat blitzkrieg style. Turns can be split into slow and steady movement when in contact with the enemy and rapid movement with a panzer screen when not.

There are two other key reasons. Force concentration, I'm regularly switching units from one area to another as different Russian formations are encountered, even pulling back the units that make first contact, for favourable ground and to allow switched units to get close enough to be involved when the real combat starts. Second, I'm usually trying to get the switched units around the sides and rear of the new enemy formation so they can be used to surround and force surrender, with the high amounts of prestige to be gained from forced surrender, it seems to more than make up for the costs associated with having the cheaper H/T's.

This may ofc all change in 43-45 if slower movement becomes the norm and most units may lose their transport, though I think the surrender prestige is so useful I would always keep some, its horses for courses and on the current course in 42 I do like the Cheap H/T horse.

Cheers
Bone
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by SSLConf_Slygore »

I'm the outlier here. I love the expensive half tracks. It lets my arty etc. Keep up w/ the advance or finish off some crummy retreating unit. I may come to regret this decision after 1941 but for now :)
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by JimmyC »

Tarrak wrote:Well to cover for your mistake with the 200pp transports you could always downgrade them to the one you want now and then use the prestige cheat to refund your lost prestige back. If you don't want to use the cheats there is no way i am afraid.

About your Ebon-Emeal and Crete Naval questions: This is how Ebon-Emeal looks for me at the deployment phase:
Image
As you can see the units are in the gliders and must land first. I am not 100% sure but as the gliders was introduced in some later patch after the DLC40 was created i think this possibly got changed by the overhaul of the DLCs when the Megapack was released. Same could be true for the Crete Naval scenario.
I played this scenario a few weeks ago after a 1 year break from Panzer Corps. I played it using the original base game (no upgrades) and my troops started off on the ground. I ran the patch to 1.22 last week and just now reloaded that scenario - low and behold, they start off in the gliders. So its obviously been changed in a patch.

Back to the topic - i often find that i am using halftracks to finish off enemies that are reduce to 1 or 2 hp, as none of my conventional forces can reach them to finish them off. So i generally prefer halftracks to trucks. I also think that halftracks have a better chance of surviving attacks by recon/tanks etc. due to their better ground defence (2 compared to the truck's 1) - although ideally you dont want them to be attacked at all.
Bonesoul
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by Bonesoul »

JimmyC - Thanks for confirming it at some point changed, the scenario you can realy feel the effect is Crete Naval, I cant over exagerate how much of a difference starting on the ground and bein able to attack on turn one Vs. landing turn one subject to AI attacks with no offensive moves possible until turn two makes.

As to using H/T to finish off 1-2 str enemies, im very much of the opinion its something you can get aeay with in 39-40 where AI units are weaker, but something very risky from 42 onwards even late 41. If only for the reason your much less likley to control the skies and a unit in H/T transport mode tends to feel very sore and abused after an early morning encounter with a russian air attack.

Slygore - How does the expensive H/t make much diference in keeping up with your armour, cheap H/T move 6 expensive move 8, most armour move 5, even the panther only moves 6. The move 8 might help to catch up if a unit has fallen behind but the cheap H/T should be more than capable to keep up.

Cheers
Bone
Lut
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by Lut »

For me it would be logical that you boost your infantry stats if they go into a fight with AFVs - dismounted.

There were plenty of halftracks to be used as support vehicles with SMG, HMG; mortar etc.

Right now the haltracks are only a better transport solution in difficult terrain/heavy weather compared to trucks but nothing more.

I would like smth like that:

Before 1943
+ 1 SA and for an inf unit going into a fight with halftracks
After 1943
+1 SA and +1 "passive air" defence
Dragoon.
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by Dragoon. »

Before the half-tracks become available it's certainly not worth buying anything, but after that anything with less than 4 hexes movement need a transport. War won't wait for the infantry to catch up.
When I calculate my turns in advance I work with 4 hexes movement per turn, since tanks have usually have 5 hexes mov. I can use the extra hex as wiggle room. But infantry with 4 or more hexes mov. it's better to skip on transport and have the options for deep forest and mountains hexes.
I don't mind the 200 prestige for the 8 hexes mov. German half-track, it's a one time purchase. It's increase my options, but this is only true for single player. Spending 200 prestige on a half-track in multiplayer is boasting.
Bonesoul
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by Bonesoul »

Dragoon

Do you still not mind the extra 100 prestige for the 8 hex H/Track even with the soft cap rules? To me one of the issues is that if your deploying 8 infantry units that's 800 prestige more deployed than the basic 6 move H/Track, that's almost a Tiger I, also is it a onetime cost if taking into account the higher reinforcement cost to replace losses to the infantry (replacement cost is based on the total unit cost including transport I believe).

In fact, the only thing I'm just starting to think might be an argument for the more expensive one, and that only a possible scenario. is where you would need the extra move to allow a frontal picket line to break contact with T-34's which have 6 move themselves.
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by Dragoon. »

Hmm, I think I never deployed more than 7 infantry units in a single battle ever in the 3 years this game has been out. :) Honestly if it were not for the free special units you get in campaign mode I would not deploy any infantry at all. Seriously! Except in multiplayer, there I would play soviet and spam conscripts. ;p
After I finished my first campaign I found infantry most of the time to be a waste of a good deploy slot. Before the patch that introduced these powerful heroes, with what you can achieve the ultimate initiative advantage of 5 or higher and with that basically immunity, I never deployed more than 3 or 4 infantry units. It depended how much SE infantry I collected during the game.
Even with infantry un most situations I would never attack an enemy until I have suppressed it with arty or strategic bombers so far that I would receive zero casualties, but at that point I could use a tank instead. So I rather deploy an other tank (or and additional arty, strat bomber), after all with the tank I don't have to worry so much about counter-arty, enemy tanks, be caught at the open, or the slow movement and vulnerability during mounted transport.
Since I use only a few infantry units I can afford to pay 200 prestige for those fast half-tracks.
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Re: Its a question of transport!! or two.

Post by Scholomancer »

My last play through I was much like Dragoon, but with my own play style I found replacing tank losses more expensive than replacing infantry losses. This time I deliberately built up my infantry so that I have something like 16-17 units right now.

With that said, I think I have one or two 200 halftracks, and I regret the upgrade as a waste. I can think of two specific situations where the extra move points are good, but both types of scenarios come too rarely to be worth the investment.

- The early blitzkrieg scenarios where your battlegroups are chugging along to keep up with the tanks, but those are rare after 42 East
- Snow and mud tiles (but there are only a handful of mud/snow scenarios where mobility is a factor, most are defensive)
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