1943 East unit upgrades

[Bonesoul]

Ok I finally finished 1942 East, I have to say well don to the Dev's, the last four scenarios from the start of Stalingrad to Tatsinskaya were just fantastic , an excellent test of your tactics before the Russian horde's start. That said starting 1943 gives so many choices for upgrades, so it seemed worthwhile to have a little discussion about them and see what people think.

Infantry

All those lovely 43 variants of the infantry units are now available, so what oh what to do? Looking at the unit stats both Gerbirsjager and Fallshirnjager seem to suffer from the same issue, they have just don't get the hard attack boost necessary for late war tanks, at least in comparison to Grenadier and even basic Infantry. Infantry 43 are equal or better on every stat than Gerbir's, Grenadier far better. Hard attack necessary for those pesky Russian tanks in close terrain, Gerbir43 = 3, Infantry43 = 6 and Grenadier43 = 8, plus any experience bonus from stars.

So why keep any unit that has a movement hero as a Gerbir43? In my case (I dropped a couple of infantry back in 39-40 and converted one to a Gerbir's to get move hero's for grenadiers) I have 2 Grenadiers and 1 bonus hero grenadier already and 2 Gerbir's, one of them bonus hero Oleh Dir, I could convert to. Why would I keep them as Gerbir's?

Tanks

Yay!!, Tigger has come to play. The issue here is how many Tiger I how soon? Upgrade of all SE Panzers seems logical, but if you don't need lots of Tiger I early in 1943 is it worth waiting, should I keep a couple of SE panzers for upgrade to Panther? Im guessing with the King Tiger as the end goal soft cap forces you to go the tiger route for SE Panzers but not sure.

The other little issue is do I upgrade the two T-34's I have been getting exp (both around 270 right now) to tigers or are Panthers close enough around the corner to wait for? At least for now I'm planning on keeping all my Pzr IVG as they are, unless the quality of Russian tanks in the scenarios forces my hand, basically to minimise Soft cap issues for as long as possible. Obviously if Pzr IV battle losses, look to be more than the soft cap loss from deploying more Tigers, I may have to reconsider.

Tactical Bombers

My standard deployment through the second half of 1942 has been 2 Stuka Ju87D and one Bf110G, as my Tactical Bomber team, with 4-5 fighters for air superiority and 1-2 Strategic Bombers (level bombers to some of you). I have been rotating two Bf110G and have 3 Ju87's in reserve, I over did the tactical bombers a bit in 39-41, not expecting the two Rudel's.

So with air superiority being my first priority and then ground attack I was stunned to see the Me410A, an in type upgrade for the Bf110G but so much meaner. It seems a good plan to switch my tactical bomber deployment for early 1943 to one Ju87D (good Rudel) and two Me410A, upgrades of my two current Bf110G for the bargain price of 102 prestige for the pair, Rudel gets switched to a FW190 ground attack variant as soon as they become available. This would then give me three tactical bombers all of which can double as fighters to finish off Russian aircraft, alongside the 4-5 pure fighters I would be deploying.

SPAT

With one StugIIIF/8 and a Marder IIA in my Core upgrading the Stug to a IIIG is obvious but is it worth upgrading the Mader before the Elephant comes along? If The Elephant is some time in 1944 for sure but if its in 4-5 scenarios do I wait.

These are just some of the issues I am considering, there may be some I have missed, your views as always welcome.

Cheers
Bone

PS: I'm considering upgrading all my towed artillery to the 210mm variant to boost their suppression a little.

[ThorHa]

I am exactly one dlc ahead, here is my experience:

Infantry
I still maintain 9 experienced infantry, equally spread between grenadiers, pioniere and gebirgsjager. And I found the much higher mobility of the Gebirgsjager to be more important than its hard attack. To indicate efficiency out of recent encounters - a 4 star strength 11 Gebirgsjager against a 2 star KV 1 B strength 10 in hills, battle prediction was 2-8 against the KV. Good enough.

Tanks
Panther D is available in the fourth scenario dlc 43 (first Kursk series). And a little disappointment, the slightly higher initiative and hard attack compared to the Tiger does not fully compensate for its much lower ground defense. Generally speaking you should advance all tanks with ini or attack heroes to Tigers (helps defeat the comparable KV 85 and JS 1 later, which have the same attack/defense ratio as the Tiger I and the same initiative), tanks with defensive heroes to Panthers.

Aircraft
You will struggle with only 4 to 5 fighters except you habe a good complement of experienced mobile AA (Meanwhile I regard experienced AA as equally important to fighters as they vastly reduce damage). If you can only bring 4 fighters to the main battles (Kursk series) you should complement them with some Me410 in fighter role. And the Me 410 DO get attacked by the better Soviet fighters like Yak 7 or 3 or the 9D successfully, except the ones with high ini heroes. Main reason is that the Me410 even shooting first has a too low air attack to prevent retaliation at strength only slightly lowered by kills.

To give you an indication - although at the initial scenarios of 43 you are always provided some AA (except Orel), I always added my 3 AA and did never regret it, despite always fielding 5 to 6 fighters.

Marder II
If soft cap is no concern, wait until you can upgrade it to Elefant in the fourth 43 scenario. Marder II are still sufficient until high numbers of better Russian tanks show up, starting with experienced T34/43. Before a Marder will never be attacked by armour, the kill/loss prediction is too bad for the AI.

Regards,
Thorsten

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Just over 1 GC ahead (up to Korsun Breakout in '44)

Infantry - Mostly 1*, Pioneres43 are my preference - about 6
Tanks - Tigers @ 2* - x4, Panthers @ 3* - x2
Artillery - 1 "Gridwerfer" ('43 Nebel) and 1 Rail gun
AT - 5? 8,8 Pak 43/41
AA - ~4 8,8 Flak 36
Air: Most of it died, just the 2 190's that I have kept alive somehow.

Numbers are approximate, I haven't played GC for over a month (thanks to mods and Nintendo)

- BNC

[Bonesoul]

Hey BNC .

If all that's left of my carefully nurtured 4Star core at the start of 43 is what you have left at start 44, i'll be devastated, 4 DLC of careful work destroyed in 11-12 scenarios, nooooooo!!!!

Bone

[Bonesoul]

Thor

I would hope to never be using Me410 as first line air suppression units but more as I have the Bf110, as a finisher. The initial attacks would be with FW190's with the Me410 possibly adding to mass attack bonus, it would then at worst be attacking to remove the last 3-4 points of strength, as the 410's will be OS to 13-14 they should be ok in that role.

I'm trying to get my head around the 2-10 prediction for Gerb43 Vs. KV-1B in hills. At 4 star's the experience bonus for the Gerb43 as infantry would be 4 initiative, 2 Hard attack and 2 Close defence based on the class specific tables right. Giving it effective HA 5 CD 6 and initiative 7 or 8. The KV-1B would have effective CD of 4 as a 2 star unit and initiative similarly 7-8. Attacking it in hills I would have a +1 auto entrenchment and initiative would be capped at 5 for the combat.

Unless i'm way off somewhere or am missing something, I cant work out how the prediction came back 10 kills from 11 shots, Hero's and suppression could make a big difference ofc. Either way, a Grenadier 43 of similar experience would have had an experience adjusted HA of 10, double that of the Gerb43 vs the KV-1B's adjusted CD of 4.

Cheers
Bone

[ThorHa]

2-8, not 2-10. In a second encounter yesterday I had a 2 - 7, so may be the GebJg was strg 12 instead of 11 the day before, sorry. Otherwise the recent GebJg encounters against T34/43, KV 1 B and even KV 85 confirm my experience - I never had anything below 1 versus 3 in damage relation against the tank in hill or close terrain. As I said - good enough. I should may be add that all of my GebJg have Ini heroes, but as far as I know this is irrelevant if the Ini is capped?

Regards,
Thorsten

[MartyWard]

Thor

I would hope to never be using Me410 as first line air suppression units but more as I have the Bf110, as a finisher. The initial attacks would be with FW190's with the Me410 possibly adding to mass attack bonus, it would then at worst be attacking to remove the last 3-4 points of strength, as the 410's will be OS to 13-14 they should be ok in that role.

I'm trying to get my head around the 2-10 prediction for Gerb43 Vs. KV-1B in hills. At 4 star's the experience bonus for the Gerb43 as infantry would be 4 initiative, 2 Hard attack and 2 Close defence based on the class specific tables right. Giving it effective HA 5 CD 6 and initiative 7 or 8. The KV-1B would have effective CD of 4 as a 2 star unit and initiative similarly 7-8. Attacking it in hills I would have a +1 auto entrenchment and initiative would be capped at 5 for the combat.

Unless i'm way off somewhere or am missing something, I cant work out how the prediction came back 10 kills from 11 shots, Hero's and suppression could make a big difference ofc. Either way, a Grenadier 43 of similar experience would have had an experience adjusted HA of 10, double that of the Gerb43 vs the KV-1B's adjusted CD of 4.

Cheers
Bone

The 410 is great against the bombers. It can be useful against fighters if you have heros.

[Bonesoul]

Thor good question.

I'm struggling to see how infantry benefit from initiative in almost all places I would choose to place them, hills with an initiative cap of 5 are actually almost an exception among close terrain, the other are generally capped at 1. If close terrain is infantry's friend and in most initiative is capped at 1 how does greater initiative help, sure if caught out in the open it will a bit, but you really don't want infantry vs. tanks in the open if you can avoid it, even with artillery support T34-43 or better from 1943 onwards are going to seriously chew them up.

Bone

[ThorHa]

In the end I don´t care why. I can only confirm - on average I found Gebirgsjager moire useful than Grenadiers even with a movement hero at the latter - simply because in lots of cases they will be where the action is. Only if I have a map littered with woods and cities or with a vast amount of open terrain I go with Greandiers (they have trucks, the GebJg don´t). And I can assure you I never until the end of dlc 43 found their hard attack in close terrains wanting.

Regards,
Thorsten

[Dragoon.]

Thor good question.

I'm struggling to see how infantry benefit from initiative in almost all places I would choose to place them, hills with an initiative cap of 5 are actually almost an exception among close terrain, the other are generally capped at 1. If close terrain is infantry's friend and in most initiative is capped at 1 how does greater initiative help, sure if caught out in the open it will a bit, but you really don't want infantry vs. tanks in the open if you can avoid it, even with artillery support T34-43 or better from 1943 onwards are going to seriously chew them up.

Bone

Infantry don't receive the initiative cap but everybody else does. Infantry is especially trained to fight in close terrain, as result their initiative is not capped. That makes hills bad to hold for infantry (high initiative cap) but good for early AT guns. The lower the cap the better for infantry. The cap can completely negate the advantage of late game tanks, since for each point of initiative you have advantage 20% of the enemy you killed or suppressed won't shoot back. As bonus if infantry attacks targets in close terrain they roles against the close defense instead the ground defense value, which is usually way higher. This put especially late game heavy tanks (with over 20 GD) at extreme disadvantage.
You can check very thing I said by looking at the combat log after the attack with hotkey L or using CTRL+Left click on the enemy unit for a detailed preview prior to attacking.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Hey BNC .

If all that's left of my carefully nurtured 4Star core at the start of 43 is what you have left at start 44, i'll be devastated, 4 DLC of careful work destroyed in 11-12 scenarios, nooooooo!!!!

Bone

No, I started with pretty much a green core (I did have 110k prestige at the end of '42) - it was only around Kursk that I actually started getting the point of experience + elite replacements. A 4* core will only lose possibly 10k pp. I lost 60k.

- BNC

[Resolute]

I always turn my infantry late game into Grenadiers if they got a movement bonus like quite a few of those special heroes you receive during the campaign. A 15 strength Grenadier with decent stats can one shot a 12 strength T-34-85 in close defense whereas you won't receive the same result with a Gebirgsjäger. Gebirgsjäger are still very good against infantry though.

[Bonesoul]

BNC

I don't think I would want to continue without an experienced core, the more I see the value of experience to units the more I appreciate checking the forums here while I was still in 39. I have started each Most of the DLC, even with increased numbers of deployable units, with spare units at close to max experience (not all I made some errors and even now I'm wondering what to do about AA).

In fact if there was only one tip I could give to a new player starting the DLC's for the first time it would be build a large experienced core as fast as you can, checking what free units you will be getting to help choose what to buy. In the early campaigns where things are a lot easier you don't need a massive prestige pool and getting those units experience early will save you a fortune in the long run.

Bone

[Bonesoul]

Dragoon

So an 6 initiative Infantry, in a close terrain hex capped at 1, will always have 100% of killed or suppressed enemy units cant shoot back. That makes the higher hard attack of the Grenadier43 even more important in keeping casualties down. A 4 star Grenadier43 would have an effective hard attack if 8, even a Tiger I only has a close defence of 4, especially with artillery support, it sort of makes sense why AI tanks just stall against my defensive infantry line in close terrain.

One questions, I assume only the defending unit in a combat where there is effective entrenchment benefit's from that entrenchment, but is that correct? So even if an attacking unit would have entrenchment of 6 if attacked, if it chooses to attack it has 0 entrenchment while attacking, even though if it doesn't move after the attack it will still have the 6 entrenchment if attacked itself the next turn.

Cheers
Bone

[Dragoon.]

Dragoon

So an 6 initiative Infantry, in a close terrain hex capped at 1, will always have 100% of killed or suppressed enemy units cant shoot back. That makes the higher hard attack of the Grenadier43 even more important in keeping casualties down. A 4 star Grenadier43 would have an effective hard attack if 8, even a Tiger I only has a close defence of 4, especially with artillery support, it sort of makes sense why AI tanks just stall against my defensive infantry line in close terrain.

One questions, I assume only the defending unit in a combat where there is effective entrenchment benefit's from that entrenchment, but is that correct? So even if an attacking unit would have entrenchment of 6 if attacked, if it chooses to attack it has 0 entrenchment while attacking, even though if it doesn't move after the attack it will still have the 6 entrenchment if attacked itself the next turn.

Cheers
Bone

Yes that is correct, you will lose entrenchment only if you move or 1 point per enemy attack. But the natural entrenchment the terrain provides get restored on the begining of the next AI turn. So if you're defending an airfield which has a natural entrenchment of 1, and get attacked during the AI turn you're entrenchment will drop to 0 for the rest of this turn, but beginning of the next AI turn your entrenchment will be back to 1.

Also after '44 and especially '45 East it may be better to use heavy tanks to defend instead of arty. Like a Tiger+Brumbar combo.
The reason is later the Russian AI will bring a lot of ISU-152 which will stun your infantry badly since they have only GD 8. In forest or cities hex will good arty support they will still do good if supress by arty as long their own arty is OK, but a Tiger+Brumbar compo is basically only defeatable from air.
The Tiger has a GD of over 20 (even more with proper heroes) that makes him basically immune to artillery, so the only danger to the Tiger would be from enemy infantry (because of close defense weakness), IS-2 tank or bombers. As long you have arty support enemy infantry can't hurt your Tiger. Unfortunately normal SPG arty has bad ground defense values, so they can easily taken out by counter artillery fire. However Stug's, Brumbars (>GD15) and to some decree Sig38 (GD of 10) has enough GD to be resistant to enemy arty fire(since GD >15 vs HA . I would take 2 or more arty attack in a single round to suppress them enough.
I you find a good defense spot you can use that combo to hold for ever, while on your turn you use the Tiger superior attack values to kill the AI units.
The AI will likely stack up in front of your Tiger(s). You can likely wipe out an entire unit with a single attack by forcing them to surrender since they can't retreat. Look for opportunities.

[Dragoon.]

BNC

I don't think I would want to continue without an experienced core, the more I see the value of experience to units the more I appreciate checking the forums here while I was still in 39. I have started each Most of the DLC, even with increased numbers of deployable units, with spare units at close to max experience (not all I made some errors and even now I'm wondering what to do about AA).

In fact if there was only one tip I could give to a new player starting the DLC's for the first time it would be build a large experienced core as fast as you can, checking what free units you will be getting to help choose what to buy. In the early campaigns where things are a lot easier you don't need a massive prestige pool and getting those units experience early will save you a fortune in the long run.

Bone

If you start in 39 you don't have to worry about experience early on because of the experience cap. The first 200 exp points are earned very fast. With some units you can even earn them in a single battle. I use only recruit replacements, except for arty and fighters and I don't use overstrength either. I save the prestige for later.
However from '41 on I only use elite replacement for units with exp over 200 (two stars) and overstrength a lot.
It takes longer and longer to earn exp from 200 on. Not worth to lose exp and then playing several battles to earn it back just to save some prestige. If it comes down to it rather don't use overstrength or sell captured units.

[Bonesoul]

Hey Dragoon

You must be telepathic, you just answered a question I was thinking about posting next .

I also agree with you totally that OS is un-necessary in 39 and most battles in 40 and also that for the first 150 exp especially early on you can choose to non elite reinforce. As I play on FM difficulty its not quite as easy to gain experience, but for sure way easier early on than later and in 39 I wouldn't add too much by way of tanks, but rotating infantry, AA, AT and air units is something I would definitely do, If for no other reason than I can get the 225 cap easily and I will need the units for later scenarios, so why not get the 225 as early as possible. Its also a time when you can use more infantry than you need, on the basis you will get first hero's and can drop to permanent reserve a few without move hero's, hoping for Grenadiers.

Personally, I see the start of 40 as the ideal time to expand your tank force, the first Pzr IV models are available in scenario 1 with a steady, in type upgrade path, all the way to 43 and the arrival of the big cats. Also with the experience cap progressing to 325 for 40 and 375 for 41, having got that first 225 in 39 on more units, its easier with the slower experience gain from FM to get close to the cap on the ever expanding number of deployable units. I'm also more likely to be elite replacing in 40/41, to ensure my rotating forces get as close to the caps as possible, again because of the slowed exp gain with FM difficulty. On my captured units thread I have already discussed my preference for using steadily upgradable Pzr III/IV models and cashing in the captured units (especially the early ones) for prestige.

As to the question you answered before I asked it, even in scenario 1 of 43, I could see the effect of increased Russian artillery and the disadvantage of infantry lower GD. Towards the end of the scenario my blocking force at one of the crossing points was faced by 2 KV-1C and 3-4 Russian artillery, ones I couldn't eliminate with air power because of the Russian range 3 towed AA protecting them. The infantry in forest was suppressed enough to be forced to retreat by the 1st KV even attacking from the bridge, allowing the 2nd KV to cross unmolested. It actually cost me heavily, to prevent a potential breakthrough and maybe lost DV, I had to use one of my 14str Strategic bombers (which lost 5 str to the Russian AA for its trouble on the AA turn) and take 4 damage to my 14 str 88mm to drive it back into the river to be dealt with. Just one example which I think highlights your point quite well.

Seeing this even at the start of 43 and having enjoyed all the scenarios so far, I am concerned that by the end of 43, the only viable choice will become heavy tanks, especially with the risk of suppression to lower GD units leading to possible force surrenders of my units (only I'm allowed to force surrender to the AI, its not fair that the AI can start to do it back to me ). I really would like to keep a varied core, but I really don't want my carefully planned defensive line to crumble the moment Russia artillery spits at it.

I guess as al last point/question. Given the threat posed by Russian artillery, the priority of targeting should almost always be AI artillery first, unless there is a specific need to say suppress the AA unit to allow air power to kill it and the artillery. Which makes those pesky little Russian switchable artillery/AT that have just started appearing incredibly irritating.

Cheers
Bone

[ThorHa]

I still used between 6 and 8 infantry throughout all 43 scenarios, you just have to be a bit more careful than before. A highly experienced infantry moreover makes a good bait if you have to distract a heavy unit from more valuable assets, it survives 1 or even 2 enemy tank attacks on open terrain and is comparably cheap to repair.

You just have to know if enemy arty is to be expected, thus scouting for the bare minimum of 2 rows deep is necessary.

Regards,
Thorsten

[captainjack]

When I get to 43 my pioneers stay as pioneers, all move hero units become Grenadiers, and gebirgsjagers usually get converted to standard infantry. Before 43 gerbirgsjagers are very good but in 43 they end up with the same SA as normal infantry and inferior HA. If I have plenty of infantry I might keep one or two gebirgsjagers in case of rough terrain.

When attacking soviet tanks in close terrain, having 6 or 8 HA against CD of 2, 3 or 4 makes a huge difference compared with 3HA. Usually I only attack when the tanks are suppressed enough to give me a chance of forcing surrender, so the pioneer benefit of ignoring entrenchment is less important, which frees them up for assaulting entrenched infantry.

Hero bonuses are also important to track - I used to use the practical but boring 3A, 2D system, but now I give the hero units either the hero name (Oleh Dir, Winsbirger etc) or a name related to what they do well. This improves the chances I use them for the right job.

Under 1.2 rules infantry v infantry combat appears to be a lot more bloody than it used to be. This could be because I use more infantry than I did under 1.14 ruler, but there is also a tendency to greater SA but with the same CD. In close terrain, experienced 43 infantry can often cope with tank attacks without artillery back up, but not against soviet infantry - combats of 7 vs 8 under dice chess can wipe out infantry pretty quickly and it's very difficult to regain experience when reformed even if you have heroes, because suppression is so much more effective against green troops.

[Vorskl]

[quote="Bonesoul"]
So why keep any unit that has a movement hero as a Gerbir43? In my case (I dropped a couple of infantry back in 39-40 and converted one to a Gerbir's to get move hero's for grenadiers) I have 2 Grenadiers and 1 bonus hero grenadier already and 2 Gerbir's, one of them bonus hero Oleh Dir, I could convert to. Why would I keep them as Gerbir's?

Tanks

I keep most of my infantry as Gebis (especially, Oleh Dir) because of Gebir's ability to move in forests quickly. Most of Eastern Front maps are forestry, so Gebirs are perfect to sit in the forests and shot Soviet tanks there - in forests (or swamps). In this ability they act better than Tigers or Panters!!! No infantry in 1943 could stand against Soviet tanks, but once operating in 'closed defense' terrain, Gebirs rock