Hi all.
I just played my first game of FoG last night and really enjoyed it. We did wonder about several things though and I have been delegated by our group to pester you about them. If it's ok, I'll post the question followed by the reason for the confusion.
Firstly, when a single line of cavalry is fighting to its front, with all bases in frontal contact and is hit by flankers, who turns? Page 56 says "If all contacted bases are in contact with enemy to their front, one of them is turned". However, page 91 speaks of "bases contacted to their flank or rear which were unable to turn because they were already engaged to their front." This seems contradictory.
Secondly, what happens when troops in two ranks are hit by flankers. The rules on page 56 say that "bases contacted on a side or rear edge, or a rear corner by an enemy flank or rear charge are immediately turned 90 or 180 degrees to face the chargers, using the normal rules for turning, provided that they are not already in contact with enemy to their front." So logically an unengaged unit hit in flank turns two bases, troops already fighting enemy frontally turn one, ie the rear of the two that are hit as its not occupied frontally. But look at the diagram on page 86. A unit has been hit in both flanks. One side has turned a base, the other hasn't. Why? What is the difference? Both flanks have been hit by enemy mounted troops so why has one flank turned its unengaged rear rank and the other one hasn't?
Bowmen at effective range shoot shoot at one base width either side, however when you look at page 83 the top of the two diagrams quite clearly shows a BG at effective range shooting at two base widths from the right of the shooter. Is the diagram wrong or am I missing something?
We had a battle group of 8 pike that lost a base which was removed from the back rank. When it then fights a melee, can it claim the POA for a fourth rank in the open when fighting a single enemy BG or does it have to be a full back rank?
Later it went on to fight frontally against two enemy battle groups. We assumed that when a 4 deep x 2 wide pike block loses a base, the half that is still 4 deep fights against its opponents with the POA for having 4 ranks, the half with 3 ranks doesn't get that POA. Are we correct in this?
Yet later, that pike block formed an overlap for friends fighting against cavalry. The bit actually in overlap was the half with only 3 ranks. We counted it as 3 ranks with a single POA (Pikemen in 3 ranks), therefore giving it a single + and needing 4s to hit, therefore 2 dice at 4s. In the next turn, with the pike block still proving an overlap, the player shifted the one remaining 4th rank pike base to provide a 4th rank to the half of the pike block helping its friends by providing the overlap. It then counted as having a + for pikemen in 3 ranks and another + for having a 4th rank of pike in open terrain, the two plusses now meaning it needed 3s to hit, so it rolled 2 dice at 3s. Did we get this right? Somehow it seemed odd.
If a pike block is hit in the flank which base, if any, turns to face? Does being engaged frontally make a difference?
On page 94 the rules speak of dice made up from more than one battle group. There were 3 of us playing last night and none of us could see what the authors are getting at there. Surely a battle group rolls its dice and that's it. How can two different battle groups provide a single dice? Sorry guys, you lost us.
Also on page 94, the rules speak say "If fighting at different POAs against parts of the same enemy BG, apportion lost dice, if possible, in proportion to the number of bases fighting each part of the enemy BG, leaving at least one dice, if possible, against each part of the enemy BG." Ummmm, errrrr. I think I know what they are saying here but I'm not 100% sure. If you look at the Romans partly in a wood on page 26, in impact combat where only front ranks matter, I would allocate 2 dice per front rank base marked B as they are not disordered, and also 2 dice for the front rank base marked A, disorder not really affecting it as it hasn't got 3 dice to roll to lose the 1 out of 3 that disorder causes. Total dice rolled = 8. In the melee phase, bases marked B would throw 5 dice and bases marked A would thow 2 dice (3 bases entitled to a dice each, losing 1 per 3 due to disorder). Total dice rolled = 7. It all seems quite straightforward to us but the rather complicated rule wording has left us a little unsure now. Have we got the right idea here?
Lastly, do routers really stand there and get hit if enemy (not their initial pursuers) charge them? To us, it seemed just bizarre that they don't even try to evade, but we are still novices.
Lots of queries there guys, but we thought it would be less hassle to ask them all at once, rather than do it in dribs and drabs. I hope the rule page references help and any feedback would be much appreciated as we are struggling slightly with what look to be a good set of rules.
Confused but keen new players need help please
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Re: Confused but keen new players need help please
If a double line is hit in the flank then the second rank base turns but the front one doesn't. Only if there is a single rank does an engaged base turn.AlanYork wrote:Hi all.
I just played my first game of FoG last night and really enjoyed it. We did wonder about several things though and I have been delegated by our group to pester you about them. If it's ok, I'll post the question followed by the reason for the confusion.
Firstly, when a single line of cavalry is fighting to its front, with all bases in frontal contact and is hit by flankers, who turns? Page 56 says "If all contacted bases are in contact with enemy to their front, one of them is turned". However, page 91 speaks of "bases contacted to their flank or rear which were unable to turn because they were already engaged to their front." This seems contradictory.
If you charge a 2 deep formation in the flank and hit both the front and second rank base then the impact will be 4 dice against 4 (before you start to lose dice for whatever reason). Without the exception a flank charge on an engaged 2 deep formation would be less effective.
The P86 diagram is a confusing oneSecondly, what happens when troops in two ranks are hit by flankers. The rules on page 56 say that "bases contacted on a side or rear edge, or a rear corner by an enemy flank or rear charge are immediately turned 90 or 180 degrees to face the chargers, using the normal rules for turning, provided that they are not already in contact with enemy to their front." So logically an unengaged unit hit in flank turns two bases, troops already fighting enemy frontally turn one, ie the rear of the two that are hit as its not occupied frontally. But look at the diagram on page 86. A unit has been hit in both flanks. One side has turned a base, the other hasn't. Why? What is the difference? Both flanks have been hit by enemy mounted troops so why has one flank turned its unengaged rear rank and the other one hasn't?
After a lot of thought we came to the comclusion that the LH on the right must have turned 90 from an overlap into a flank contact and that does not force the enemy to turn. I suspect a search of the forum for P86 or similar will uncover the full thread on this one.
This is in the FAQ. If you check the diagram closely you will see that the bow are not quite in line with their target and that a small part of the first overlapping base is in front of the target.Bowmen at effective range shoot shoot at one base width either side, however when you look at page 83 the top of the two diagrams quite clearly shows a BG at effective range shooting at two base widths from the right of the shooter. Is the diagram wrong or am I missing something?
Again I think this is in the FAQ, if not it should be in the common missconceptions list. You work out POAs on a file by file basis so if one file is three deep and one four deep only the four deep file gets the POA for the 4th rank.We had a battle group of 8 pike that lost a base which was removed from the back rank. When it then fights a melee, can it claim the POA for a fourth rank in the open when fighting a single enemy BG or does it have to be a full back rank?
Yes this is correct and in the first case it would have depended on how many ranks were in the file that was fighting.Later it went on to fight frontally against two enemy battle groups. We assumed that when a 4 deep x 2 wide pike block loses a base, the half that is still 4 deep fights against its opponents with the POA for having 4 ranks, the half with 3 ranks doesn't get that POA. Are we correct in this?
By the sound of it that is correct. Think of it as the pikes sorting themselves out better after the initial contact.Yet later, that pike block formed an overlap for friends fighting against cavalry. The bit actually in overlap was the half with only 3 ranks. We counted it as 3 ranks with a single POA (Pikemen in 3 ranks), therefore giving it a single + and needing 4s to hit, therefore 2 dice at 4s. In the next turn, with the pike block still proving an overlap, the player shifted the one remaining 4th rank pike base to provide a 4th rank to the half of the pike block helping its friends by providing the overlap. It then counted as having a + for pikemen in 3 ranks and another + for having a 4th rank of pike in open terrain, the two plusses now meaning it needed 3s to hit, so it rolled 2 dice at 3s. Did we get this right? Somehow it seemed odd.
The front base if it is in contact doesn't turn but all contacted bases other than the front rank turn. If you hit the second rank of a pike formation leaving the front then the second-fourth rank will turn but remember that the impact will always be at ++ and --If a pike block is hit in the flank which base, if any, turns to face? Does being engaged frontally make a difference?
When you shoot you count bases shooting at a target not bases shooting from a BG so if you have say close range shooting from a BG of 6 longbow and 6 crossbow at protected infantry then the target will be on the wrong end of 3 front rank longbow bases, 3 rear rank longbow, 3 front rank crossbow and 3 rear rank crossbow. Or 6 front rank and 6 rear rank bases so 9 shooting dice. Of these 4 will use longbow POA, 4 will use crossbow and the other dice is half and half so follows the rule on P94.On page 94 the rules speak of dice made up from more than one battle group. There were 3 of us playing last night and none of us could see what the authors are getting at there. Surely a battle group rolls its dice and that's it. How can two different battle groups provide a single dice? Sorry guys, you lost us.
It sounds like you have it spot on.Also on page 94, the rules speak say "If fighting at different POAs against parts of the same enemy BG, apportion lost dice, if possible, in proportion to the number of bases fighting each part of the enemy BG, leaving at least one dice, if possible, against each part of the enemy BG." Ummmm, errrrr. I think I know what they are saying here but I'm not 100% sure. If you look at the Romans partly in a wood on page 26, in impact combat where only front ranks matter, I would allocate 2 dice per front rank base marked B as they are not disordered, and also 2 dice for the front rank base marked A, disorder not really affecting it as it hasn't got 3 dice to roll to lose the 1 out of 3 that disorder causes. Total dice rolled = 8. In the melee phase, bases marked B would throw 5 dice and bases marked A would thow 2 dice (3 bases entitled to a dice each, losing 1 per 3 due to disorder). Total dice rolled = 7. It all seems quite straightforward to us but the rather complicated rule wording has left us a little unsure now. Have we got the right idea here?
Yes they do but remember that they only lose a base from pusuit if they fail to outdistance their pursuers in the JAP. Think of this as the BG charging the routers making an effort to catch up but that the result of that effort isn't know until you roll the VMD for rout and pursuit in the next JAPLastly, do routers really stand there and get hit if enemy (not their initial pursuers) charge them? To us, it seemed just bizarre that they don't even try to evade, but we are still novices.
No problem, I hope the answers are OK.Lots of queries there guys, but we thought it would be less hassle to ask them all at once, rather than do it in dribs and drabs. I hope the rule page references help and any feedback would be much appreciated as we are struggling slightly with what look to be a good set of rules.