Charging evaders without orders

[pcelella]

I have a question about a rule I don't quite understand concerning shock troops who have to do a CMT to not charge evaders. On page 58, the rules say that if the enemy is capable of evading, to add 2 MU's to the charge distance. Now how does this actually work? Say you are lance-armed cavalry, does that mean that if an enemy who can evade in the open is within 7 MUs (5 + 2) you must test? Any detailed description or example of how this is actually run, would help.

Thanks

[hammy]

There are two parts to the rule, the first decides if there is a possibility of a charge (the first ans second bullets) then the remaing bullets appy to the "However shock troops will not charge...." section.

The +/- 2MU is only taken into consideration if you might charge and that is driven by your base move distance.

[sagji]

The paragraph with the +2 MU is clarifing the assumptions you should make in determining if the previous conditions are met.

Thus if your cavalry has some LH within 5 MU and behind the LH is some broken ground then the cavalry won't charge without orders if the broken ground is within 6 MU. If the broken ground is more than 6 MU away then they don't have the move to enter it. If their target were non-fragmented Cavalry instead of LH then could charge without orders as there is no way their charge could enter the broken ground.

Basicaly if there is a combinations of possible outcomes that could lead to an excluding situation occuring then the unit won't charge without orders.

As another example a BG of MF protected impact foot sword in broken ground facing a BG of LF on an adjecent hill with broken ground - these won't charge without orders if a VMD of -1 or -2 would leave some of them in the open ground. Replace the LF with steady HF elite armoured impact foot skilled swordsmen the the may charge without orders - assuming all bases would enter the broken ground in the hill.

[pcelella]

Thanks for the help guys, but just one more thing to make this clear for my simple brain

Say there is an enemy unit of LI 3 MUs away from my Impact Foot HI with a MU of 3. Let's also say that there is no terrain in distance to consider - everything is open. Does the HI need to do a CMT test not to charge? If the LI evaded normal, they would be 8 MUs away, if they evaded short, they would be 6 MUs away - so the HI could not catch them. It seems to me that no test is required.

What if the LI were 1 MU away. If they roll short, they would end up 4 MUs away. In that case, if the HI roll long, they could catch the LI. So, I now assume they would need to test.

Am I getting this correct?

Peter

[pbrandon]

The chargers still take a VMD roll and move accordingly. See p68, top right paragraph.

Paul

[pcelella]

The chargers still take a VMD roll and move accordingly. See p68, top right paragraph.

Paul

Right - I understand that. But they would still need to make a CMT in this case, and I guess if their VMD went short, it would essentially be a failed charge then, right?

Peter

[hammy]

The chargers still take a VMD roll and move accordingly. See p68, top right paragraph.

Paul

Right - I understand that. But they would still need to make a CMT in this case, and I guess if their VMD went short, it would essentially be a failed charge then, right?

Peter

Yes, consider it that if they make a low VMD roll that they have realised that their target will get away and as a result not pressed their charge too hard.

Remember that just because a BG can evade it doesn't mean it has to do so.

[sagji]

Thanks for the help guys, but just one more thing to make this clear for my simple brain

Say there is an enemy unit of LI 3 MUs away from my Impact Foot HI with a MU of 3. Let's also say that there is no terrain in distance to consider - everything is open. Does the HI need to do a CMT test not to charge? If the LI evaded normal, they would be 8 MUs away, if they evaded short, they would be 6 MUs away - so the HI could not catch them. It seems to me that no test is required.

What if the LI were 1 MU away. If they roll short, they would end up 4 MUs away. In that case, if the HI roll long, they could catch the LI. So, I now assume they would need to test.

Am I getting this correct?

Peter

Shock troups that can reach the current position of enemy have to test to not charge - unless there is a good reason not to such as
Terrain troups that could leave the terrain.
Mounted troups that could enter terrain.
Foot that could contact impact mounted.

The simple fact that the enemy will run away is not sufficient.

[pcelella]

Thanks for the help guys, but just one more thing to make this clear for my simple brain

Say there is an enemy unit of LI 3 MUs away from my Impact Foot HI with a MU of 3. Let's also say that there is no terrain in distance to consider - everything is open. Does the HI need to do a CMT test not to charge? If the LI evaded normal, they would be 8 MUs away, if they evaded short, they would be 6 MUs away - so the HI could not catch them. It seems to me that no test is required.

What if the LI were 1 MU away. If they roll short, they would end up 4 MUs away. In that case, if the HI roll long, they could catch the LI. So, I now assume they would need to test.

Am I getting this correct?

Peter

Shock troups that can reach the current position of enemy have to test to not charge - unless there is a good reason not to such as
Terrain troups that could leave the terrain.
Mounted troups that could enter terrain.
Foot that could contact impact mounted.

The simple fact that the enemy will run away is not sufficient.

And this is EXACTLY what confuses me about the need to have the line about assuming an extra 2 MU in the rules to test for this charge. I don't understand the point of it. If you must test to see if you must charge an evade capable unit if they are within your current charge distance, regardless of whether they can evade away or not, what purpose does the statement about assuming the extra 2 MU serve? It seems simpler to eliminate it, and just say that if the enemy is within charge distance, you must test to see if you must declare a charge on them.

Am I just missing a basic point here, or what?

Peter

[nikgaukroger]

I suspect that the point you are missing is that the part that says assume a charge move distance of 2 MU more than the shock troops normal move relates to circumstances when the shock troops do not have to test to charge - e.g. if the move would end in disordering terrain.

[matt0341]

Variable move distances has nothing to do with determining whether or not a unit must test to charge. It is always based on the normal movement rate of the unit in question. HF Impact foot for example must test (generally) when there is an enemy foot BG within 3 MU's. So, in this situation you would not have to test if the enemy foot BG was 4 MU's away which is within their THEORETICAL charge distance, but beyond a normal move.

The exception to this is when testing to charge units that can evade. The first condition, that the evaders must be within normal move distance of the chargers must still be met to even bother testing. BUT, if there is any terrain that would disorder or severely disorder the chargers within a normal move +2 MU's, then you would NOT have to test to charge even-though the enemy unit is within normal move distance.

In other words you do not test to charge evaders if a normal move plus the max VMD would bring the chargers into disordering terrain. Or in the case of medium foot in uneven,rough, or difficult terrain who do not have to test if the normal move +2MU's would cause the unit to end its move in open terrain.

[pcelella]

Variable move distances has nothing to do with determining whether or not a unit must test to charge. It is always based on the normal movement rate of the unit in question. HF Impact foot for example must test (generally) when there is an enemy foot BG within 3 MU's. So, in this situation you would not have to test if the enemy foot BG was 4 MU's away which is within their THEORETICAL charge distance, but beyond a normal move.

The exception to this is when testing to charge units that can evade. The first condition, that the evaders must be within normal move distance of the chargers must still be met to even bother testing. BUT, if there is any terrain that would disorder or severely disorder the chargers within a normal move +2 MU's, then you would NOT have to test to charge even-though the enemy unit is within normal move distance.

In other words you do not test to charge evaders if a normal move plus the max VMD would bring the chargers into disordering terrain. Or in the case of medium foot in uneven,rough, or difficult terrain who do not have to test if the normal move +2MU's would cause the unit to end its move in open terrain.

Thanks - now with this explanation, I finally understand how this works. I may be dense, but this was one area of the rules, that no matter how many times I ruminated over it, it just wasn't clear to me.

[matt0341]

You aren't dense...the rule isn't very clear. It took me a while to figure it out.

[hammy]

This is one of those rules where less would be more in that the bit about not charging if the VMD could cause you to do bad stuff could be left out.

The issue is that the second part does need to be there to cover specific obscure circumstances but a lot of people read it as part of the main rule. There were a number of particualrly obscure things that ended up being left out as they would end up causing more problems than they solve.