Panzer II Flamm: Hot or not?

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Great unit, but why only the PzII in Flamm mode. Surely they could have made a Pz III flamm?

- BNC

[Kirby]

Agreed, PZIII Flamm should be added to the game.

[captainjack]

In Stalingrad the Panzer 2 Flamm has been quite good, especially for clearing out conscripts and smg infantry although a nebelwerfer is pretty much essential to assure sufficient suppression. It's also great for making toast. The Panzer 3N is not as good against heavily entrenched troops but is more versatile in that it can take on infantry in clear ground and some tanks as well as disposing of suppressed SMG infantry.

One good feature in terms of game balance is that it's very good at some jobs but has some important limitations, so you have to think about when to use it. I will probably keep the Flammpanzer 2 into 43 as if I remember correctly there are some deeply entrenched units (probably in Kursk) that it would be useful for dealing with, but a Flammpanzer 3 would be a nice option to extend the anti-SMG capability a bit longer, even if it would never be quite as good as a Churchill Croc.

[MartyWard]

In Stalingrad the Panzer 2 Flamm has been quite good, especially for clearing out conscripts and smg infantry although a nebelwerfer is pretty much essential to assure sufficient suppression. It's also great for making toast. The Panzer 3N is not as good against heavily entrenched troops but is more versatile in that it can take on infantry in clear ground and some tanks as well as disposing of suppressed SMG infantry.

One good feature in terms of game balance is that it's very good at some jobs but has some important limitations, so you have to think about when to use it. I will probably keep the Flammpanzer 2 into 43 as if I remember correctly there are some deeply entrenched units (probably in Kursk) that it would be useful for dealing with, but a Flammpanzer 3 would be a nice option to extend the anti-SMG capability a bit longer, even if it would never be quite as good as a Churchill Croc.

I have found it to be useful in scenarios where you are on the offensive, definitely helpful at Kursk. When you are on the defense it is not worth deploying, IMO.

[captainjack]

I have found it to be useful in scenarios where you are on the offensive, definitely helpful at Kursk. When you are on the defense it is not worth deploying, IMO

A good point. My brief experience of using the Flammpanzer 2 supports its use as an attack weapon for special targets. However, the same experience suggests that for defensive scenarios you might as well take a Panzer 1 for 1/3 the prestige cost.

[MartyWard]

They seem to gain star faster than most tanks. You can use them to build up an very experienced unit rather quickly then change it to a battle tank.

[Bonesoul]

I have to agree that the Flamm is a special purpose vehicle which shines when used in attacking scenarios to quickly clear out Russian SMG/Guard units in heavily entrenched positions. In this situation used with an neb/wulf rocket artillery and a pioneer/grenadier you can take out most entrenched flag hexes in one turn, I'm not certain but pretty sure they gain experience so much faster because infantry are considered their natural prey so they get more per kill than other tanks. In a defensive scenario the more balanced Pzr IIIN seems the logical choice. They are also a nice choice to drive up to isolated gold flag hexes to prevent AI unit spawning, sitting in a clear hex and especially if covered by a stug or a wulf they are unlikely to be attacked (though watch out if Russian air units are available). Come to think about it they make a great air trap lure, without having to risk those 14 over-strength artillery.

As to a Pzr III flamm, though I agree it would be an interesting unit in certain circumstances, around the time historically, the N and L varieties were still relatively effective varieties. The old Pzr II chassis, unable to support heavier armour were logically being converted to other uses, SP artillery, SP AA, SP AT and the flamm. By the time the Pzr III became similarly obsolete, post Kursk, it seems unlikely than flamm versions, with their offensive leaning, would be a sufficient priority and more likely other types of possible conversion would take place.

I would say that especially in the more prestige poor world of the soft cap, it would be nice to convert Pzr III at some point to non tank variants at a reduced prestige cost and keeping the experienced crew, another example would be the Stug which cant be converted from the Artillery variant to the AT variant.

Over all I like the little Pzr II flamm, if it had been available earlier, for sure the one you get at the start would have become one and seen epic use in the France campaign.

Cheers
Bone

[captainjack]

The Flammpanzer was around before the game allows purchase, so if it doesn't offend your preferences you could use a cheat code to buy one when they were historically available. In the context of the game you are merely using your success and status to get them sent to your battle group instead of Mannstein's.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

The Flammpanzer was around before the game allows purchase, so if it doesn't offend your preferences you could use a cheat code to buy one when they were historically available. In the context of the game you are merely using your success and status to get them sent to your battle group instead of Mannstein's.

How hard to mod this though?! - And the game engine does allow purchase before 1939 (WWI mod!) - just how it has been scripted.

We damn well need the Flammpanzer III though!

- BNC

[ThorHa]

Not me. I am already struggling with the design decision to make units available as core that where historically produced in very small numbers or only existed as prototypes (Flamm, Sturmpanzer I, the Maus - which would have been a useless tank on the battlefield - for the AI the KV 2 or the never produced T90 AA etc.). While at the same time discouraging the usage of mass produced and historically very important units (German Jagdpanzer 38 being the most obvious example).

Regards,
Thorsten

[captainjack]

I am already struggling with the design decision to make units available as core that where historically produced in very small numbers or only existed as prototypes

I'm guessing that you wouldn't be interested in the jadgmaus someone mentioned in a forum I read recently!
To be fair, I think that they were discussing it in the context of a fantasy/fictional mod using prototype and concept weapons.

Personally, I don't mind the odd special unit to add a bit of colour and to keep us on our toes. After all, some units made in small numbers or as prototypes were used in combat (eg Sturer Emil) or could have been (eg the Tortoise, Centurion, IS3). And at its heart, Panzer Corps is very difficult to win if you use historically accurate forces and tends to rely on over-representation of more advanced weapons. My preference is to have one or two units of rarities and specials in an army that has more good equipment than the real ones did, rather than an entire army of Maus, SPAAG 90 and Antigravity Flying Saucers.

The real trick is to make the specials interesting without being overpowered so you have to think where and when to use them or can take them out but you have to think about it.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Jagdmaus? Soon we might seen Jagdstormtroopers!

If the Maus and Tiger II had -1 move/turn each, I think that would balance things out a lot more. One of my main hopes with WWI was to make it a lot more historically accurate - at least in terms of weaponry. (ignore SMGs in '14 here - they are just a graphical thing getting changed in GC 14). Only issue now is the artillery spam startegy that everyone likes - I guess thats why we will soon have Light, Medium and Heavy artillery, to rebalance that out a bit.

- BNC

[Wellingham]

Flamms are so awesome that I was even using one in USA WEST COAST!!!!!!

My second favourite unit only to Arado Bombers (234s)

- BNC

Really?!

~Ulisses Montagna

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Somehow, yes it is true (I mostly did it because the flame animation is really awesome - great way to punish the secret service (even if the flamm gets killed in the process)

- BNC

[captainjack]

I've been trying out the Panzer III Flamm from Guille's collection. The animation lacks the subtlety of the Flammpanzer 2 but has a charm of its own. Like the Flamm Panzer 2, it is useful or rooting out entrenched soft targets, but it will come to a bad end if it takes on anything armoured, even though its defence is a big improvement over the FlammPanzer 2.

So if you like the Flammpanzer 2 but can't use it any more, the Flammpanzer 3 might be just the thing for you. Personally I'd push the prestige cost up a bit but since I only plan to use 1 to complement my pioneers the cost isn't a big issue for me.

[SSLConf_Slygore]

I LOVE my Pz II Flamm's great sound effect and nothing like vaporizing +10 conscripts in one attack. So much fun. I just treat them like an infantry unit. The suggestion here to use as mobile pioneers was very helpful. They hang out in the back w/ the Nebelwerfers.

[captainjack]

I'd love to graft the FlammPanzer 2 sound (and maybe visuals) onto Guille's Flammpanzer 3, but I think I used up all my modding skills in adding someone else's unit and making it work.

[Elkarlo]

They seem to gain star faster than most tanks. You can use them to build up an very experienced unit rather quickly then change it to a battle tank.

Honestly they're pretty good and can hit back against decent tanks and not die. Unlike infantry. I've toyed with the idea of not deploying infantry and just having flamm panzers

[goose_2]

Love the Flamm's...I detailed my love in Favorite Tank Topic...

Love that 1.40 ROF...

I finally had the perfect set up to try and catch a 20 kill shot in my Manstein playthrough...

It was at Warsaw Uprising where the ai goes first and there was one position on the map where you could set up a sweet ambush...so I positioned Heinz Rondorf in his Flamm with 15 full strength so I could blast that naïve Polish Inf walking into him on the opening move...

Well, I tried for 45 minutes loading and reloading the start of that scenario just so I could get that shot...no luck...the most I saw a couple of times was hitting 19 of their 20 strength unit...

I had like a 79% chance of kills, so this was as close I think as I would get to garnering that -20 damage kill shot, but no such luck.

So instead I reconfigured my layout for that match and decided to try and build up my 2 remaining Flamm Tanks in preparation for their use in Berlin, which I may reach by the end of the year. Maybe?

[proline]

They seem to gain star faster than most tanks. You can use them to build up an very experienced unit rather quickly then change it to a battle tank.

Honestly they're pretty good and can hit back against decent tanks and not die. Unlike infantry. I've toyed with the idea of not deploying infantry and just having flamm panzers

The trouble with that is that in close terrain the ideal front line is often infantry supported by high RoF artillery. The infantry scare away tanks and the artillery scares away infantry. If you put Flamms on your front line an enemy heavy tank will come and blow them away.