Prestige Soft Cap

[jaggy]

@Tarrak - I do not mind at all. Appreciate your clarification on Minimum Coefficient and thanks for the link to Rudankort's thread.

[antoniocapo]

What the manual definitely is missing is the reduced freedom of core composition compared to Panzer General. While in PG - as the devs themselves stated correctly - a wide mix of approaches works just fine (from big wing proponents to tank fanatics, with or without arty) in my current experience the only reliable prestige saver is lots of artillery, up to 25 or even 30% of your core, IF covered by defensive fighters and or AA. This strategy is so much superior to any alternative that it narrows the strategic choices of a player very much, which is a clear consequence of game design choices.

I read that too, PG having a wider mix of winnable approaches to building your core. But back then i relied on good old big artillery and airforce, same as now. However i noticed that after the 1.20 rules, artillery and airforce lost some of its luster. Thats due to the extra benefits of entrenchment and more bonuses to air attacks, making infantry more powerful and also AA. Despite that, a big artillery wing (25%+) plus tons of fighters still works great for me.

[ThorHa]

In PG I never ever had much artillery, the 4 pieces I advanced was mainly because of Sealion 43 (London) and USA 45 (Washington). However I had tons of air (at least 7 fighters, 5 tactical and 3 level bombers prior Sealion 43, much less now in PC due to much stronger enemy air and AA) and tons of armour, as experienced overstrength Tigers and Panthers rarely encountered rugged defence and even then simply blasted through it. And I have much more infantry than in PG, where it was a mental struggle to advance more than the few accumulated in the first 4 scenarios, as they were mainly plain simple useless at the Eastern battlefields.

Regards,
Thorsten

[MartyWard]

If you were to deploy less core units than you were allowed would the amount of prestige you gain be increased? For example if you were allowed to deploy 40 core units but choose to deploy only 36 would you get 10% more prestige?

[antoniocapo]

If you were to deploy less core units than you were allowed would the amount of prestige you gain be increased? For example if you were allowed to deploy 40 core units but choose to deploy only 36 would you get 10% more prestige?

Yes, you bring your soft cap down by deploying less units. But its not based on number of units only, the cost of units actually deployed is averaged by dividing total cost into the maximum core allowed to be deployed.

[MartyWard]

If you were to deploy less core units than you were allowed would the amount of prestige you gain be increased? For example if you were allowed to deploy 40 core units but choose to deploy only 36 would you get 10% more prestige?

Yes, you bring your soft cap down by deploying less units. But its not based on number of units only, the cost of units actually deployed is averaged by dividing total cost into the maximum core allowed to be deployed.

Thanks.

[Aloo]

I have found that with the soft cap rules, not repairing units near the end of the battle is now a very good strategy. Not only do you save prestige, since repairing in deployment phase is cheaper/free, but the damaged core units are worth less prestige and you can get more prestige for finishing the battle.

[ThorHa]

Sure that works? I would mean the soft cap is only calculated the last turn with the existing units at their current strength?

Regards,
Thorsten

[Aloo]

I would have to re-check.
Im sure its calculated each turn for the purposes of prestige per turn on defensive missions and VH prestige. When I get home Ill check how it works for end of mission prestige.

[Aloo]

Did a test in Prohkorovka. Result when ending with DV:
Bringing expensive units to 1str at the end of the scenario - 4000Prestige for the DV
Raising expensive units to 20str at the end of the scenario - 800 Prestige for the DV

So it is in fact how it works - the final prestige is calculated using the Soft Cap calculated on the last turn.

[antoniocapo]

Did a test in Prohkorovka. Result when ending with DV:
Bringing expensive units to 1str at the end of the scenario - 4000Prestige for the DV
Raising expensive units to 20str at the end of the scenario - 800 Prestige for the DV

So it is in fact how it works - the final prestige is calculated using the Soft Cap calculated on the last turn.

Good job and thanks

[ThorHa]

Bloody useful, thank you.

And that triggers my memory about the old PG times - later and more experienced I often let units along the way there too - the final victory hexes never needed the full force, so why spend time and prestige for repairs? Sigh, too long ago ...

Regards,
Thorsten

[captainjack]

I've followed ThvN's advice and set UseSoftCap to 0 in gamerules pzdat, so it should be off, but it still appeared to be operating in Kiev 43 after I'd done this.

I am about to start 44 East, where (from previous experience) I will need every bit of prestige available to have any chance of completing it.

What is the fastest and simplest way of checking if the Soft cap is actually off?

[jaggy]

@captainjack - You might want to try the following:

Its hard to figure out where you are in average prestige cost during deployment as there in no in game indicator of this. Also, the average prestige cost of your core is recalculated at the start of each turn. So as you take losses during a scenario, you get gradually more prestige. Many, me included, would love to have this prestige soft cap level indicator feature. It will certainly enhance the fun experience of toying with ones deployed core.

But for the scenario you mention, if you want to find out how much force to deploy to get the maximum reward i suggest the following: Deploy your full core and save the game before clicking the end of turn button to start the scenario (you will be revisiting this save point multiple times). Now click the end turn to start and just take the nearest town to figure out how much prestige it rewards you (Spasskoye at 5,29). Towns give normally 50 prestige points if at 100% prestige level. Depending on how much prestige you got rewarded (should be anywhere from 10-50) you will know how much you should weaken your force to get to 100% prestige reward. So if you got 10 prestige out of taking that town, you know your average prestige cost is 800 or more and will need to deploy less units and or less costly units. If you got 50 prestige from taking the town you are already at the 100% maximum prestige reward you want. Now keep reloading to that save point and taking that town until you get rewarded a satisfying prestige amount (I will be happy with 30).

[captainjack]

Thanks Jaggy.
I'll give it a go later today.

[ThorHa]

Works Jaggy. just tested in Dnipropetrovsk - 40 points per city 6 turns into the game, indicating I will receive 90% of prestige end turn after taking some more losses.

There is one scenario in 43 (Orel) with a huge amount of DV prestige where it really can make an equally huge difference.

Regards,
Thorsten

[jaggy]

@ThorHa - I'm really happy for you. Its actually antoniocapo's suggestion. For myself I'm getting 20% of prestige in GC '43 even with 14-strength Panzer IV H. All my SE panzers are Panthers. This is the first time in the campaign I'm playing with Panzer IV H in my core force right up to the end of GC '43 due to the lack of prestige.

[ThorHa]

A 14 strength Pz V H costs 487 basic prices) plus 10, plus 15, plus 20 and plus 25% (each consecutive point of overstrength) = 487 + (487*0,7)340 = 827 prestige. Are you sure you would not be better off with a Panther at strength 12 for near exactly the same or a Tiger at strength 11 for a bit less prestige actually ?

Regards,
Thorsten

[captainjack]

Switching the soft cap off (thanks to Jaggy for reposting the advice) didn't affect DLC 43, which I was part way through at the time, but it is now off in 44 East. Clearly changes to the soft cap settings in the main gamerules file have to be made before starting a DLC.

44East starts with an under siege scenario followed by an escape, so I had to go to the third or fourth scenario to find a city I could attack on the first turn. I must admit that placing all my artillery and two 14Strength SE Grenadiers to attack a single city did feel quite good, even though it was just for a test run.

Running through the 43East and using the endscn cheat codes to get the same results I did when playing it, the victory prestige alone was 33,700. Add in the flag capture points (around 2000 per scenario in some cases), plus per turn awards in about half the scenarios, plus surrender prestige and I should have been ready to start 44 East with about 50K to 55K prestige after repairs, upgrades etc. Based on my previous unsuccessful attempt at 44 East, that would be about right for me to get through.

With the soft cap on I was only getting around half prestige, even though I had very few units beyond 12 Str and a high proportion of Infantry (most with no transport) and other less expensive units, so I had thought that I was hardly affected by it. I feel a bit cheated, because I had no warning that the prestige cap was working, other than that I thought I should still be gaining prestige through 43 rather than breaking even. My first thought was that I was playing badly (that's by my standards, which do need some improvement).
The main thing from this is that the prestige soft cap should be made much more visible, not act in a hidden way. Bear in mind that I'm a fairly experienced player and had trouble identifying what the issue was. The soft cap should ideally be made an optional selection in the difficulty screen just like Reform Units, Chess/Dice Chess/Random etc.

It would also be better of the cap levels started to act earlier - either in 41 or 42, so that people could get used to them. That way it would encourage active choice between cheaper highly over-strengthed units and more expensive partly-over-strength or normal strength units earlier so that players get a chance to understand what's happening. The limits would have to change through the DLCs for this to work. It shouldn't be too difficult to have a message at the start of the DLC or in the message screen (as with SE units and experience cap) to say your prestige cap range is X to Y. When you complete deployment and press proceed, the screen could then show the current cap range and the average cost of your force, so you knew what you were in for.

In short, prestige cap is quite a good idea but is not currently implemented very well.

[Resolute]

Yeah I do agree. The soft cap itself isn't very bad and it serves its purpose just the player is completley left in the dark about that hidden difficulty which only impacts the late game but very profoundly. Any sort of indicator during the deployment phase and maybe a seperate slider on the difficulty screen to adjust the coefficient level would be really helpful.
I also wish that with the soft cap enabled the strength points of the heavy Soviet tanks would be slightly toned down.