Lack of artillery for the Ruskis ...

[ThorHa]

I don´t know if anybody else feels the same - but I am astonished and thankful for the lack of the dreaded Soviet artillery concentrations which according participants was a signature feature of the later eastern battlefields. So far (mid dlc 43) I field much more artillery than the Russians, which is odd for a WW II wargame on the German side .

Regards,
Thorsten

[antoniocapo]

The dreaded soviet artillery concentrations will be back in Soviet Corps!

[captainjack]

I think that they have replaced it with SPAAG T90s. I am sure that I have already destroyed more of these than were ever made and I'm only part way through Kursk North in 43. Even then I just had a cluster of three artillery to take out - even with a 3* tiger it was hard to do any harm to the one I was attacking because of the suppression from the other two.

There is at least one artillery-intensive scenario to come (I think it's in 44, but I had a bad time in 44 East last time I played so I try not to think about it too much!) where the main objective is to destroy the artillery early before the main force arrives.

[antoniocapo]

I think that they have replaced it with SPAAG T90s.

Ugh those pesky insects are everywhere.

I hope to tackle the artilleries easy in 44 with 5* King Tigers by then

[sn0wball]

Given the competence the AI wields artillery offensively, large artillery formations wouldn´t cause much dread.

[captainjack]

The SU152s are a pain to get rid of. Fortunately I've just upgraded some old PaK 50 to 3* Elefants, so they should be a little easier to now.

[antoniocapo]

The SU152s are a pain to get rid of. Fortunately I've just upgraded some old PaK 50 to 3* Elefants, so they should be a little easier to now.

Raising a PaK 50 to 3* should be an achievement. How you managed that?!

[captainjack]

Having three 3* Pak 50 isn't that hard. Start your Pak 37 in 39, then every time they get to 2*, retire and replace - ended up with six. In 1940 you can get them up to 3* with a bit of care and luck, though you have to accept a few losses as they need to be close to the front to be any use - I had 5 by the end of 1940. Fortunately they are cheap enough not to be upset when they get destroyed. When the Pak50 becomes available as an upgrade, it is very cheap. At 2 or 3* it is also effective against the early T34 and KV1, especially with artillery backing. Terrain helps but even in the open they work OK. They don't work against experienced KV1C and T34/43 and the upgrade to Pak75 doesn't add very much. so they should be retired well before Tatsinskaya but by then you can get Stug 3 (I had two that started as Panzerjager 1). I ended up with three 3* Pak 50 in reserve, two are now Elefant. The third will probably end up as Jagdpanther, unless I feel like modding the equipment file to make the Jadgtiger HA and initiative reflect the range and power of the PaK128.

I'm about to try Prokhorovka with two 4* Stug 3 and two 3* Elefant at max overstrength with the idea that they can take out KV1C and the SU152 leaving the Tigers to deal with the other armour.

If that sounds a lot of AT, I was seeing how I did without using any tanks except in the scenario I got them ( I can't remember whose crazy suggestion this was but it seemed a good idea at the time). Much to my surprise, it was pretty good up to Maginot line at the end of 1940, but you start to need real tanks in 41 as the terrain is more open and the distances are greater.

[ThorHa]

Why should the idea to play a tankless game be crazy? Out of my memory - in Hearts of Iron II, a WW II game on a completely different (higher and worlds more complex) level than PC a guy once won the bet to knock out Soviet Union in 1941 with only headquarter units on the ground. Which besides extremely high speed had the lowest possible attack and defense values of all ground units in the game, as their main purpose was to work as command units boosting real fighting units in their radius of influence. He misused the game engine with respect to logistics and supply, btw, which are not implemented in PC (and therefore true Blitzkrieg tactics are impossible in PC).

And I don´t see the necessity for tanks in 1941 either, earliest 1942 to build the necessary experience for the upgrades to Tigers and as it is the first time when German armour is roughly equal to the Soviet one. Before the usual tactics to deal with enemy armour is to drive your forces in a defensive position, covered by artillery, and let the enemy come to you. In all wargames I know (and I know some dozens) the most cost effective way of offensive has always been local tactical defense in the face of considerable enemy forces. Why should that not be possible with (mobile) AT?

Regards,
Thorsten

[captainjack]

ThorHa you speak much sense.
With my playing style, playing tank free was quite a conceptual challenge and rather good fun (good crazy). But I realised that at some point I would need tanks to cope. Invading Russia in 41 provided the ideal combination of opportunity and (for me) need to start developing a tank force.

However, I have just finished Kremenchug part way through 43 East and there have been quite a few scenarios (including the one just before Kremenchug) where AT, infantry and artillery would have been very effective without tanks.

So if anyone's wondering about playing tank-free, give it a go.

For info, I play on General with dice chess and reform units but I'm not good enough to need the challenge (?) of the prestige cap.