terrain, combat and number of dice

[Rekila]

Some situations arouse in our last game, which I will like to check.

A unit in rough or difficult terrain or in square counts as "other troops or situations", and have 4 or 6 (large) dices. But what happen with a unit in square and in terrain? Does it still have 4 or 6 or must lost additional dice (1 of 3).

A Shock cavalry unit is fighting against infantry and has rear support; it means +1/-1 or +2/-2 dice.

A cavalry unit assaults an infantry unit in an open wood. The infantry fires like in difficult terrain, i.e half number of dice, but both sides fights with 4/6 dices as “other troops and situations”?

Thanks’ in advance.

[deadtorius]

Check page 56 chart at the top for full explanation about what counts as other troops or situations.

A unit in tactical will always start with its full number of dice, 6 or 8 small or large unit. Even if in difficult terrain it will start with this number of dice.
For dice reductions you check your cohesion level, either the units current level or their adjusted level for whichever terrain they are in. A unit will fight as 1 (rough) or 2 (difficult) levels lower than their current cohesion state.

As for your square in terrain, not sure why you would even bother as cavalry only get their POA bonuses if infantry is in open, not standing in rough or difficult terrain.
Steady square in rough would lose 1 die per 3, in difficult 1 die per 2.

Assuming small units:
square starts with 4 dice.
In rough it would lose 1 per 3 or 1 die so is left with 3 dice.
In difficult it would lose 1 per 2 so left with 2 dice.

Unit in tactical starts with 6 dice.
If in rough loses 1 per 3 so left with 4 dice.
If in difficult loses 1 per 2 is left with 3 dice

Your unit in tactical still gets more dice.

Shock Cavalry
Rear supported shock cavalry will net out to get 2 dice and remove 2 dice from their target unless the infantry is in square or defending an obstacle. You will always get the rear support dice, so +1/-1 regardless.

Cavalry assaulting open woods
Depending on how you classified the open woods, most often I see them referred to as rough with cover, dense woods would be difficult with cover, but its up to you.
Assuming you made the terrain difficult, number of dice will depend on the infantry formation.

If Infantry are in tactical: both would start with 6 or 8 dice, depending on unit size.
If the infantry is in square: then both sides get 4 or 6 dice, this is the being in square or cavalry fighting infantry in square other situation
You then add or subtract dice normally for rear support etc.

Now you would reduce the dice for being in difficult. Assuming no dice additions or losses
Infantry in tactical: both sides reduce their dice to 3 or 4 dice
Infantry in square: both sides will fight with 2 or 3 dice

Remember terrain does not count as being in other situation, that applies to troops like Skirmishers, defending obstacle, attacking obstacle, irregular light cav march column etc.

[BrettPT]

what happen with a unit in square and in terrain? Does it still have 4 or 6 or must lost additional dice (1 of 3).

The unit in terrain (in any formation) uses the "other" line, so starts with 4/6 dice for small/large.
It then loses dice depending on terrain - ie for infantry in tactical, 1 per 3 for rough, 1 per 2 for difficult.
So a small unit in rough gets 3 dice, in difficult 2 dice.

A Shock cavalry unit is fighting against infantry and has rear support; it means +1/-1 or +2/-2 dice.

+2/-2

A cavalry unit assaults an infantry unit in an open wood. The infantry fires like in difficult terrain, i.e half number of dice, but both sides fights with 4/6 dices as “other troops and situations”?

It's worse than that for the PBI I'm afraid. The rules for mounted v foot in terrain are broken. there have been posts on this before and we have been using a 'fix' in New Zealand over the last year or so.

This is what I believe is the interaction (asuming the wood is difficult) under the rules as written:

1. The cavalry move up to 2MU to charge (visability range).
2. When the charge is declared, the infantry will auto-drop a cohesion level (charged by mounted within 2MU) to disordered.
3. The infantry cannot form square (not in the open) and have no dice for defensive fire (shoot 2 levels lower for being in difficult, ie shoot as broken)
4. The cavalry will charge home. Assuming it is a small LC unit, it will get 3 dice in combat (4 dice for "other", less 1 per 3 for LC in difficult) needing 4+ to hit. (small lancers get 4 dice in total - the optimum difficult terrain troop IMO)
5. The infantry get no combat dice (fight as broken).
6. Whether or not the cavalry dish out any hits in combat, the infantry will be retiring - being disordered (or wavering) vs fresh. Their retire move is halved for being in difficult (so will be 1-3 MU if disordered, 3-5 MU if wavering) Unless they only retire 1MU, the infantry will face away from the cavalry.
7. The cavalry pursue 3-8 MU (pursuit moves are not halved in terrain). Most likely result is they will catach the retiring infantry in the rear and rout them.

Summary? LC v infantry in difficult is almost always going to end up with dead infantry and unscathed cavalry. If the infantry are in skirmish formation they should survive, but because skirmishers have to evade charges they cannot hold the wood and will be driven back each enemy assault phase.

Cheers
Brett

[deadtorius]

I was thinking of the wrong FOG rules, you can count as "broken" for cohesion loss so disordered or wavering troops would not get any dice due to dice loss in difficult terrain.

Infantry not in square and and in the open take the CMT for being charged while not in square.

Infantry not in the open do not take that CMT so you could argue that "Infantry not in square take an additional automatic cohesion loss if Assaulted by cavalry starting from within 2 MU" since they don't take the test for being charged to begin with, how can they auto drop in addition to something they don't test for?
All in the interpretation

Thats how we do it in our games.
Bloody veteran Guard Frogs hiding in woods charged by Austrian Cuirassier, no test for being charged so no drops, we used the suggested skirmishers can stand in terrain ruling and they passed, then shot up and drove off my Cuirassier

[deadtorius]

Technically a square could have moved into terrain, over a few turns to be sure if they had a truly remarkable foresighted commander

Only says you can only form square in open doesn't say you can't move amongst the trees if you started in square.

[deadtorius]

Other thoughts about cavalry assaulting infantry in woods.

The cohesion test for being assaulted by cavalry within 2 Mu states you must be in the open and not in square to take the test.
Infantry not in square take an additional automatic cohesion loss if assaulted by cavalry starting from within 2 MU.
Defending woods, or standing in any terrain, you are not in the open so you don't take the original test.
You don't take the original test you can't be dropping cohesion as an additional consequence of taking the test.

Looking at it from a different angle, you would agree that a Charismatic commander can give an additional die to a cohesion test, if he is in contact with the unit.
if he is within 4 MU he can rally but no additional die benefit. Likewise if he is within 3 Mu or 2 Mu, 1MU or even 1/2 MU he can rally but no additional dice added. To gain the benefit of the extra die you have to meet the requirement that he is with the unit, physically touching the unit, base to base.

Likewise in our game last Saturday I had a unit of infantry that moved to within 1 1/2 MU of the rear right corner of a unit of French Hussars. Even had the Hussars wheeled 90 degrees I would still have been of to their right side so not within charge arc of those Hussars. Now lets say another French cavalry unit is 7 MU away and can wheel to charge my infantry. I take the initial test for being charged by cavalry while not in square in the open. I don't auto drop cohesion just because I happen to be 1 1/2 Mu from some other cavalry unit.
I meet the first requirement of the test that I am in the open.
The cavalry that is charging me does not start within 2 Mu so I do not meet the second requirement and do not take an auto cohesion drop.

Infantry in the woods do not meet the requirement to take the initial test, they are not in the open so the additional auto cohesion loss would not apply to them. Don't meet the initial requirement the second one does not apply.

I think you would find that infantry in the woods are a lot tougher to take out with cavalry than you think. You have to move within 2 MU and take close range shooting. Then you declare the charge and get shot at again on your way in. Assuming you don't lose any cohesion along the way so far you both lose dice for being disordered/wavered for being in terrain, and you don't get your POA since the infantry are not in square but should count as being in cover, even shock cavalry would not cause the infantry to lose a POA since they would have to be in open. What needs to be determined now is what counts as being in cover, since not all terrain is likely to count for this. Just because I am on a steep hill it would not likely count as cover so the cavalry would gain the POA, likewise standing in a swamp that is difficult might not be considered cover either. Light woods (rough) or forest (difficult) most definitely counts as cover.
So really it comes down to does the cavalry get the POA if the infantry is in any terrain or only if the terrain would provide cover from shooting.
Other than that the whole you auto drop morale does not apply.

[BrettPT]

The cohesion test for being assaulted by cavalry within 2 Mu states you must be in the open and not in square to take the test.
Infantry not in square take an additional automatic cohesion loss if assaulted by cavalry starting from within 2 MU.
Defending woods, or standing in any terrain, you are not in the open so you don't take the original test.
You don't take the original test you can't be dropping cohesion as an additional consequence of taking the test.

Certainly a reasonably argueable interpretation, although the implication that "additional" means "additional consequence of" does not go without saying.

The subject of this rule is not the taking of a test, it is the taking of cohesion loss.
This rule can also be read as meaning what it says: that you take a cohesion loss, over and above any other loss you may, or may not, take. If you take no loss (either because you pass a test or don't need to take one) then you still drop 1 level. The word 'additional' is simply to clarify that it is possible to drop 2 levels.

In any case, we are over-analysing this I think, and agreed that dropping an additional level in woods is silly.

You have to move within 2 MU and take close range shooting.

True, but not much of it. A small unit only gets 2 dice needing 6's to hit..

Then you declare the charge and get shot at again on your way in.

Assuming the infantry haven't auto-dropped a level, you still only get 2 dice in defensivre fire - although probably now needing 5+ to hit the charging cavalry.

What needs to be determined now is what counts as being in cover

This is relevant to shooting, but not so much to hand-to-hand as there is no modifier for 'cover' in close combat (only fighting across an obstacle).

In close combat, it's a straight dice off - both sides hit on 4+. The trouble is that the mounted get more dice (3 if small unit. Foot get no dice - or 2 dice if they don't take the auto-drop). Given the mounted are assaulting, odds are the infantry will be going backwards. Even if the infantry take no hits (and haven't autodropped) the cavalry will pass through unless disordered.

Before we changed the rules on this locally, Andy Duncan (excellent player by the way) used to sometimes field a wood-clearing large unit of Prussian conscript Lancers. This unit was unstoppable in the woods, rolling 6 dice in combat!

Cheers
Brett

[Sarmaticus]

As it is an open wood that's in question, the terrain type is Cover (see p. 97): visibility should be 6MU, firing as in difficult, fighting as in rough. Infantry being bested by cavalry in open woods isn't a problem: that was what officers at the time expected to happen ; forming an orderly square wasn't possible in such terrain either. In Rough or Difficult terrain, cavalry should be at a disadvantage.

[deadtorius]

Rough will drop 1 die per 3 so a small unit would still get 4 dice for combat.
The cover designation cancels the cavalry pos, and shock do not get their poa for infantry since it is not open. So at worse case the infantry and cavalry fight at evens both needing 4's.

One thing in am not getting is why the infantry fire is affected. Rules not handy at present, but cover affects units shooting into not not out of terrain for the pos. So shooting up cavalry at close starts with 4's' same for shooting at them as they close. Infantry still has a chance to knock them down.

[BrettPT]

One thing in am not getting is why the infantry fire is affected. Rules not handy at present, but cover affects units shooting into not not out of terrain for the pos. So shooting up cavalry at close starts with 4's' same for shooting at them as they close. Infantry still has a chance to knock them down.

You are correct for cavalry that are outside a wood and infantry inside. The cover poa would apply once the cavalry got inside the wood as well.
It's not so much rough woods that are the issue, but difficult woods.

[Rekila]

Thanks for the answers I oversight the point about not been allowed to form square in terrain, but as we play SYW, we only form square when surrounded by enemy units, so I think it must be allowed in such a case. I certainly agree with the interpretation that the automatic lost of cohesion for been charged within 2MU didn’t apply in terrain (We infantry commanders must stick together in that!). I must confess that I have developed a certain dislike for woods now, as they seem always to be helping the French cavalry. I feel a great deal sympathetic with Saruman lately

[Blathergut]

Was the point below ever commented on/clarified by Terry? Is it an automatic loss or just an additional one if you already took one? I would agree with Brett that it at no time requires a CT.

Re: terrain, combat and number of dice

Postby BrettPT » 24 Oct 2013 02:48

The cohesion test for being assaulted by cavalry within 2 Mu states you must be in the open and not in square to take the test.
Infantry not in square take an additional automatic cohesion loss if assaulted by cavalry starting from within 2 MU.
Defending woods, or standing in any terrain, you are not in the open so you don't take the original test.
You don't take the original test you can't be dropping cohesion as an additional consequence of taking the test.


Certainly a reasonably argueable interpretation, although the implication that "additional" means "additional consequence of" does not go without saying.

The subject of this rule is not the taking of a test, it is the taking of cohesion loss.
This rule can also be read as meaning what it says: that you take a cohesion loss, over and above any other loss you may, or may not, take. If you take no loss (either because you pass a test or don't need to take one) then you still drop 1 level. The word 'additional' is simply to clarify that it is possible to drop 2 levels.