Gen'l Status, Routing with BG That Is Picked Up

[bbotus]

A question that has been bugging me for some time finally happened the other day. Is a CMDR lost if routing with a BG that is picked up because it cannot complete its rout move? The CMDR is removed from play if routing/evading off the table with a BG (page 54, V2).

Here is what happened. A cav BG (white bases) with CMDR (green base) in the front rank is in melee against cataphracts (red bases). The cav are fragmented so the enemy brings up a unit of LH to block any rout move.


The cav break in melee and cannot avoid the LH so they halt 1 MU from the LH and are caught by the cataphracts (losing a base not shown). The CMDR is still in the top front of the BG but I moved him to the side to show the final position of the BG.


The cataphracts fail both rolls (melee and pursuit) to kill the CMDR.
Page 116 says that any routing BG with its path obstructed by unbroken enemy that cannot be bypassed is destroyed at the end of the phase. Is the CMDR picked-up with the BG at the end of the phase? Or is it left in position as per the following picture?


NOTE: RBS has stated that a CMDR with a BG is not lost if the BG loses a base and autobreaks and is picked up as the enemy has already moved. The CMDR would only be lost if the enemy subsequently moves through his position and he can't get to another unit. viewtopic.php?f=43&t=41682 See the last comment on page 2. However, this is different since the Cav are destroyed in the Melee Phase for not being able to complete their rout move.

[titanu]

I do not think this situation is specifically covered. See p52 left hand column second bullet down:

He can only leave the battle group .... during the manoeuvre or joint action phases.

So if the rout is in the melee phase when the BG is removed he is removed with it. If in the joint action phase I would also argue that he has already moved and so cant leave and again is removed also.

[petedalby]

See p52 left hand column second bullet down:

I think you mean right hand column?

I agree that it is not specifically covered and I've seen it played both ways. Given his unit has been surrounded and annihilated it doesn't seem unreasonable that the Commander should be lost too.

[petedalby]

On reflection, I think this could be one for the V2 FAQ.

The rules are specific on when a Commander is removed:

In combat on a dice roll
In pursuit on a dice roll
When his BG leaves the table
When he can be shot at or moved over and can't reach a friendly BG

In this scenario, none of these apply. So the rules appear to allow him to remain in place at the end of the melee phase since his pursuers have failed to kill him. He is then free to move in the JAP and presumably again in his own movement phase.

[bbotus]

Yeah, that is what the rules say. So, even though the BG can't complete its rout move and is surrounded and surrenders on mass, the general is left on the table and squirts away.

I wonder if the authors thought about this specific situation.

[dave_r]

Yeah, that is what the rules say. So, even though the BG can't complete its rout move and is surrounded and surrenders on mass, the general is left on the table and squirts away.

I wonder if the authors thought about this specific situation.

Depends on the phase. The way I've played it is that if the BG is removed (as opposed to being completely destroyed) in the melee phase then the general goes with it.

In the jap the general moves first so can "get away" before the unit is removed. I think the rules also state the general does not have to rout with the unit in the jap, even if he was with the unit.

[titanu]

On reflection, I think this could be one for the V2 FAQ.

The rules are specific on when a Commander is removed:

In combat on a dice roll
In pursuit on a dice roll
When his BG leaves the table
When he can be shot at or moved over and can't reach a friendly BG

In this scenario, none of these apply. So the rules appear to allow him to remain in place at the end of the melee phase since his pursuers have failed to kill him. He is then free to move in the JAP and presumably again in his own movement phase.

I think you could argue that his battle group has left the table.

[navigator]

I'm with Peter..we have tended to play it as the rules state (rightly or wrongly) He remains in place and moves in the Jap

[petedalby]

I think you could argue that his battle group has left the table.

You could do that Bob - but if you then read Page 54 , hopefully you would agree that this only relates to leaving the table by a side edge rather than being physically removed for any other reason.

PS - Thanks for your post Paul. Although it does seem harsh not to kill the Commander in such a situation.

[lawrenceg]

On reflection, I think this could be one for the V2 FAQ.

The rules are specific on when a Commander is removed:

In combat on a dice roll
In pursuit on a dice roll
When his BG leaves the table
When he can be shot at or moved over and can't reach a friendly BG

In this scenario, none of these apply. So the rules appear to allow him to remain in place at the end of the melee phase since his pursuers have failed to kill him. He is then free to move in the JAP and presumably again in his own movement phase.

Is the routing BG removed before the immediate pursuit? If so, the pursuit would probably move over the commander triggering either his relocation or removal.

[bbotus]

Is the routing BG removed before the immediate pursuit?

No, page 107 says that if a routing BG meets an enemy it cannot bypass, then it is destroyed at the end of the phase.

But there is another sentence on that page which answers the question about the fate of the commander, i think. 2nd Column, page 107: "A CMDR who is with a BG at the moment it breaks must rout with it once. Until the JAP he cannot leave the BG and cannot influence any CMT or CT." Well, the routing BG is picked up at the end of the Melee Phase. Since that CMDR can't leave until JAP, he gets picked up too.

[lawrenceg]

Well, it's not picked up, it's destroyed and in a sense it could be argued that the BG is leaving the commander, not the other way around. The troops do not ascend directly to heaven, they disperse and try to escape by any path that isn't blocked and there is no reason why a commander shouldn't also do that.

[dave_r]

Well, it's not picked up, it's destroyed and in a sense it could be argued that the BG is leaving the commander, not the other way around. The troops do not ascend directly to heaven, they disperse and try to escape by any path that isn't blocked and there is no reason why a commander shouldn't also do that.

And be similarly dispersed and destroyed?

[petedalby]

And be similarly dispersed and destroyed?

Not according to my set of rules - no.

[bbotus]

Hmmm. I hear what you guys are saying. I can't get around the wording on page 107 which says the BG is destroyed at the end of the phase and the CMDR can't leave the BG until the JAP. To me that strongly implies that he has to stay with the BG when it is picked up at the end of melee (or impact, if appropriate).

[lawrenceg]

Well, it's not picked up, it's destroyed and in a sense it could be argued that the BG is leaving the commander, not the other way around. The troops do not ascend directly to heaven, they disperse and try to escape by any path that isn't blocked and there is no reason why a commander shouldn't also do that.

And be similarly dispersed and destroyed?

Escape by any path that isn't blocked.

[RobKhan]

Hi All,

Historically, Generals and their like were worth a bit for the troopy that captured him(occasionally her) and so would have been the focus of the successfully surrounding battle groups. So I would argue that a result where the unsuccessful BG has to be lifted should include the General, or, in the spirit of a competitive game, make it a die roll of 8 or less and he slips away in the dust and confusion to be entrusted with other responsibilities.

I suppose no-one has done the analysis on the "escape:capture:fall on own sword:death at hands of enemy:dumb accident:disappeared ratio"

I also think the Bbotus reference to the rules is also significant. I think it should also apply if a BG is wiped out with kills(unlikely, but I remember once having 15 shooting dice at a reduced BG)

Cheers
Robkhan

[rbodleyscott]

And be similarly dispersed and destroyed?

Not according to my set of rules - no.

You are of course correct Pete.

[rbodleyscott]

Hi All,

Historically, Generals and their like were worth a bit for the troopy that captured him(occasionally her) and so would have been the focus of the successfully surrounding battle groups.

If they kill/capture him, which (having failed their dice roll to do so) they haven't.

[bbotus]

And be similarly dispersed and destroyed?

Not according to my set of rules - no.

You are of course correct Pete.

Thanks, much appreciated.