Units I have learned to love

[ksasaki]

it seems I would need to purchase the PC version after all...

[ExiledZebra]

Yes, I've tried SP AA before, and they just sit around for 10-15 turns, it's pretty worthless...

Agree. They feel great the one or 2 times a plane comes flying by (or doesnt cause they avoid the AA). But then theres nothing to do with them except pray for more airplanes attacks? Its a waste of core space. Perhaps they be a little more use if they cost 1/2 a deployment cost and could at least make weak ground attacks.

I think they would be more useful if they were able to fire automatically if a plane attacks a truck within their vicinity (unless they already do that, then in that case they should automatically open fire when an aircraft flies into their range).

[captainjack]

AA will defend any ground units it is next to, so a well placed SPAA can provide good defence. When it is your turn you can shoot at anything within range - 3 range AA are very good unless the enemy has them and your own aircraft are in range. However, you may need to switch between air and ground view to be able to select all available targets.

Under the 1.2 rules, the air attack goes up by 2 for each star, so at 3 or 4* even a light AA gun can be pretty deadly, especially as some of the 20mm guns have 120% ROF, which can give additional attacks.

[Stmcla]

I've just played escape from Stalingrad. The first time I played it I thought it would be a straight run for the river, so I didn't take my 2 88's, but just my 2 mobile AA units. The was the first scenarios where there was a continues supply of soviet aircraft and the mobile AA units did get a lot of action, but they tended to only do damage of 2-4 points which was disappointing. I then played the scenario again but this time brought along the 88's and they did a lot of damage to the soviet planes, 7-10 points. I'm going to stick with the mobile AA units a bit longer as I suspect the Soviet air activity is a sign of things to come. However I'm trying to use them as a deterrent/defence by placing them by units in trucks, which are targeted by planes. I'm also going to upgrade my artillery to half tracks to give them a bit more protection. Maybe in the long term I'll cash in the mobile AA's for some Tiger II's.

[fliegenderstaub]

...Maybe in the long term I'll cash in the mobile AA's for some Tiger II's.

Maybe you should consider waiting for Möbelwagen, Ostwind and Wirbelwind? They have a Pz IV chassis and are pretty good at defending against infantry, while protecting neighboring units against air attacks.

***

I like the StuH 42 and the StuG IV because of their versatility. The StuG IV is a bit weaker in anti tank mode than the StuG III but can be switched to artillery mode with a range of 2 (!) (I haven't had a range hero for them yet ). The StuH 42 is rather good finishing of weakened enemy units in anti tank mode. I never upgrade it to the Brummbär.

Playing the West GC I learned to love the Panzerwerfer 42. Weaker and slower than the Wurfrahmen but much better in defense.

The Panzer III series looks very interesting to me. At least until the beginning of 1943. Switching between the N and M depending on the battleground is rather cheap.

Last but not least of course I have to mention the Sturmgeschütz III and the "Achtacht"...

[antoniocapo]

I've just played escape from Stalingrad. The first time I played it I thought it would be a straight run for the river, so I didn't take my 2 88's, but just my 2 mobile AA units. The was the first scenarios where there was a continues supply of soviet aircraft and the mobile AA units did get a lot of action, but they tended to only do damage of 2-4 points which was disappointing. I then played the scenario again but this time brought along the 88's and they did a lot of damage to the soviet planes, 7-10 points. I'm going to stick with the mobile AA units a bit longer as I suspect the Soviet air activity is a sign of things to come. However I'm trying to use them as a deterrent/defence by placing them by units in trucks, which are targeted by planes. I'm also going to upgrade my artillery to half tracks to give them a bit more protection. Maybe in the long term I'll cash in the mobile AA's for some Tiger II's.

This right here is why AA isnt working right in this system. The mobile AA doesnt hit for much and often doesnt get to do anything. The 88 hits for more but then you cant move it and give air cover at the same time. And also doesnt do much after the wave of planes goes away. Sometimes the planes are at 1-3 strength and escape to be at full strength a couple turns after. AA cant chase them and finish them off in their hangars. Worse still, the AA gets in the way of my artillery, and its rather messy and cluttered in rough terrain and or bad weather, so its very hard to position them.

Now susbstitute each AA unit in your core for a fighter, not a problem as they require the same space in your core. The fighter hits as hard if not harder than an 88 and also protects your bombers (AA cant protect bombers). Also you can chase and finish off the weakened enemy planes for good. After the wave is finished the fighters can strafe and recon the field, so they feel useful still. Granted the strafing aint that great, but i often get 1-3 hits on unentrenched units (while entrenched hit for 0-1 but reduce the entrench level). The strafing somehow is very good against tanks for some reason. And its very good strafing trucks or transports. And all that without taking that nice perfect hex for my precious artillery, as planes float over your units. Also fighters cant be flanked and attacked as AA is. FIghters can get to any far plane fast and destroy it, while AA is hindered by terrain, distance and the enemy blocking it.

I would only consider AA units if they cost half a deployment cost and could attack ground units in your turn.

[captainjack]

I suspect the aircraft/AA is a matter of taste and experience.

I used to rely on a strong air force until I started losing too many aircraft to enemy AA under 1.2 rules. Now I usually have two 88s and later add one SPAA (usually the Sdkfz 7/1 or 2, as I have found the fast light one you get at the start of AK is a bit feeble). The 3 range of the 88 and their decent hitting power once at 2 or 3* makes them very good for weakening fighter cover before hitting them with fighters. I have found that this works well in AK where the British air forces are mor numerous and often better than my own. I have had less success with SPAA, but I learnt that a 4* Mobelwagen with +3 attack hero provides excellent defence and is good for hunting down the more powerful soviet fighters from 43 onwards. The increasing number of units with air defence also makes strafing attacks more costly in 43 and 44, so AA starts to have greater value.

I think that the main advantage of AA is the ability to defend several attacks in the same turn. While the AI usually only attacks once, the presence of the AA deters further attacks. Next turn you get to shoot one of the undamaged planes, so you have two weakened ones your fighters have a chance of finishing off.

The 88s aren't very effective as AT after about 1942, even with 4*, but still can be handy for finishing off damaged units or clearing out spammed BT7s. Once you get a Mobelwagen, the defence is good enough to make it useful for an emergency blocking unit if you find a hole in your defences, even when all the planes have been cleared. While I don't trust my skills to use this as a deliberate trap, a Mobelwagen with one or two decent artillery units behind it can give lighter units with limited spotting a nasty surprise.

[antoniocapo]

I suspect the aircraft/AA is a matter of taste and experience.

Yes, planes are tastier.

You make good points Captainjack (Dr. Who?). This is a fun good debate: planes vs AA. So heres some friendly rebuttals:

1. Losing too many aircraft to AA - never, ever ever, leave a plane within range of AA. Sometimes you need to get one further hex away cause they move to kill you. Win the air supremacy battle away from enemy AA. Recon is your friend.

2. Air defense makes strafing costly - yes, so never strafe anything thats has air defense unless supressed first, out of ammo or at 1-2 strength. I usually find plenty of targets with no air defense or too weak or supressed, so i take no losses or very few. Thats why i prefer Strategic bombers to tac bombers. Tac bombers always getting hit from (1) air defense is irritating! Strategic bombers never get hit from anything not specifically an AA unit.

3. AA deters further attacks to your ground units - A single fighter on top of a unit makes it 100% unattackable. Heck, even a bomber can protect a ground unit that way! The AI rarely or never attacks any unit in fighter cover (one hex away) if it knows that the fighter is there, so all your units are safe.

That said i do have 1-3 AA units in reserve for some plane heavy scenarios. But they only are useful the second time i replay the scenario when i know where the massive air attacks are coming from. Usually my AA is out of position to counterattack, my fighters never are.

[LandMarine47]

I've fallen in love with Fallshcirmäjers! Great light Infantry, especially good when fighting in rough terrain and cities. They lack when fighting tanks and have low ammo, but if you need one last objective and you have 2 or 3 turns left, better use there paratrooper ability! They allowed me to fight in "The Streets of Moscow" in GC 41 (that is a scenario straight from hell, right next to Sealion 45, Sevestapol Assault,all the Stalingrad Scenarios and other demonic scenarios) I also love my Foot Stukas as well, and BF 110s (great fighter bomber). When they have 2 or 3 stars of xp, they can really mess up a pesky T/34

But my all time favorite, and will always have a special place in my heart is the Panther Tank! Combining the speed of a T-34 and the firepower of a SU-85!

[antoniocapo]

I've fallen in love with Fallshcirmäjers! Great light Infantry, especially good when fighting in rough terrain and cities. They lack when fighting tanks and have low ammo, but if you need one last objective and you have 2 or 3 turns left, better use there paratrooper ability! They allowed me to fight in "The Streets of Moscow" in GC 41 (that is a scenario straight from hell, right next to Sealion 45, Sevestapol Assault,all the Stalingrad Scenarios and other demonic scenarios) I also love my Foot Stukas as well, and BF 110s (great fighter bomber). When they have 2 or 3 stars of xp, they can really mess up a pesky T/34

But my all time favorite, and will always have a special place in my heart is the Panther Tank! Combining the speed of a T-34 and the firepower of a SU-85!

So a Foot Stuka is (googles)...Oh! lol. They best in pairs.

[LandMarine47]

Yeah I call them foot Stukas, as I don't want to butcher the German Language

[antoniocapo]

I cant pronounce the Fallsinyourheadjagers or the Geibermountaindudesjagers either.

[LandMarine47]

Don't forget the. Kradsutengonnashotyouinamortarcycleguys

[BiteNibbleChomp]

They allowed me to fight in "The Streets of Moscow" in GC 41 (that is a scenario straight from hell, right next to Sealion 45, Sevestapol Assault,all the Stalingrad Scenarios and other demonic scenarios)

Let me add to the list of evil scenarios:

Vyazma, GC41
Dieppe, GC42W
Oboyan, GC43E
Bagration, Vanilla Campaign
Gazala, AK
Crusader, Allied Corps

And some of the evil scenarios I made !

Brusilov Offensive
Cambrai
Arras18
Mons18

- BNC

[LandMarine47]

They allowed me to fight in "The Streets of Moscow" in GC 41 (that is a scenario straight from hell, right next to Sealion 45, Sevestapol Assault,all the Stalingrad Scenarios and other demonic scenarios)

Let me add to the list of evil scenarios:

Vyazma, GC41
Dieppe, GC42W
Oboyan, GC43E
Bagration, Vanilla Campaign
Gazala, AK
Crusader, Allied Corps

And some of the evil scenarios I made !

Brusilov Offensive
Cambrai
Arras18
Mons18

- BNC

Mons gave me post traumatic stress disorder

Don't forget the Marne either

[BiteNibbleChomp]

As far as I know, Mons18 is the hardest scenario created as yet (200+ enemies!)

Marne is as easy as pie in comparison!

- BNC

[captainjack]

I used to dislike Cauldron, but I just gave the Afrika Corps a sound kicking, so I can't complain any more. Hurrah for me!

It's risky to complain at German compound words being a bit of a mouthful. I might start asking my Finnish friends to suggest names for the Winter War units in the Soviet Corps and adding Welsh, Sri Lankan and Tongan unit suggestions to the Minor nations mod community...

And Antonioncapo I had been watching Pirates of the Caribbean and Dr Who when I joined the forum, so it's probably a bit of both - her indoors likes both Captain Jacks, so I've never worried about it too much.

[antoniocapo]

Don't forget the. Kradsutengonnashotyouinamortarcycleguys

Google translate is so funny

Here is another: Wushwushthrowsthisnumberofrockets 40 that someone refered to as the even funnier Footstuka