Complex Close Combats

[BrianC]

I was just wondering how other people resolve large complex Impacts and Melees where 2 lines fight having BGs intermixed fighting different enemy BGs?

I am at the point where I am placing the number of dice I roll per file behind the file for each side all along the line. I then roll each files dice for both sides then figure out which ones hit and which ones did not. The ones that didn't I simply remove. I now determine who won the melee by counting and grouping each BG to see if they lost. Then do cohesion checks and death checks as needed. All during this process I keep the dice behind each file so that enemy files that take a loss can take it from the file that has the most hits. As well it seems to make it easier to determine the number of hits a BG scored against how many it received vs multiple BGs.

Question, am I making this overly complex? Is anyone else doing it this way? I am finding this a long and tiring process right now and am hoping it will get easier : ).

Here is an example pic of a melee at the point where I determine which BGs lost. (note the number of hits vs the elephants : ), I hope my bad luck has ended.



Thanks for any insights

Brian

[Keith]

It's all one combat ?

Then just add up the hits to see which side won.

The losers take cohesion tests , the only problem is working out of they took 2 more hits than recieved and how many hits each BG took

But you have the dice all there to add up hits on each BG for tests and death rolls.

Then the winners can take their death rolls if they took enough hits to bother.

And the good bit is roll to kill generals , we have only had one die in two games so far.

I think I have it correct after 2 games? half a dozen more and I'll actually have to starting thinking about tactics. But it's a bit "foggy" when you start playing , but the "fog" clears after a while

[Keith]

double post

[hammy]

Your method is similar to mine but normally you don't need to roll for every file as often you can lump two or three files together.

Another thing I often do is to roll four dice of one colour and two of another where the two are against a different BG or at a different POA.

O am not sure how big the BG's are in the Roman line in your photo but assuming they are in 6's then I would roll roughly:

4 dice for the Carthaginian spearmen againt the left Roman BG
4 of one colour and 2 of a different colour for the Gauls (the two are against the second Roman BG
2 of one colour and four of another for the left hand Romans
etc.

Some people put the hits behind their opponents troops but I think your way is the clearest.

[nikgaukroger]

Another thing I often do is to roll four dice of one colour and two of another where the two are against a different BG or at a different POA.

Just make sure your opponent knows what you are doing otherwise it may lead to confusion - its happened a couple of times in games I've played and I suspect it was down to different experience levels of the players

[pbrandon]

In one of my early games I was putting dice down to record hits I had inflicted and my opponent was noting hits received on his units. We sorted it out in the end.

Paul

[BrianC]

Thanks for the replies guys,

Keith, its one melee but multiple BGs engaging in combat so I just rolled the dice up and down the line then figured out hits to which BGs then determined who lost.

I did it last time where I would throw different colour dice if 1 BG was fighting 2 different BGs but this time I threw the Triarii into the line and seemed to make it more complicated for me. There were so many BGs fighting multiple enemy BGs I did not know how to keep it straight. How do I know who the red dice is for or the yellow in each case. I started to get them mixed up. My first time through seemed easier and I did use that method. I would resolve 1 melee at a time and place a coloured dice behind each BG to show who was who. Then throw the dice and allocated hits, then move on to the next melee.

I thought too that you needed to keep track of which files took the most hits so that you can take losses from them rather than just choosing on your own?


Oh and my Roman BGs were 4 bases. You can't see the entire line but I had 4 Roman HF BGs and 2 Triarii BGs (the ones in the red plumes). I think it was the triarii that made it look too divided as I put them in between the HF. I must admit thtey really did help.

I know the line looks like its broken but I couldn't close the distance to the elephants due to figures hitting. So the base meleeing the first elephant on the left is part of the base that rolled a 3 and 4, then a new HF then triarii to the extreme right. Just as a note, the end result this turn was that the fragemented Carthaginian broke this turn then next turn the entire line broke.

Brian

[Seldon]

Brian,
let me say that your armies look very good...

we need some more pictures !!!

seldon

[BrianC]

Hi Seldon,

Thanks for the kind words but I must admit to being humbled by a lot of really well painted armies by members on here. I am in the process of fixing some paint chips and adding material to bases and will have all the bases covered and painted shortly.

My group is holding a Demo/Teaching game on the 6th of April and we are planning on taking lots of pics and doing up an AAR. Perhaps we could post a link to where the pics and AAR will be. It will be a stand up fight using the Roman and Carthaginian armies from the rule book. We're hoping for between 4 and 5 people showing up. Should be good

Brian

[shall]

If you search on that subject you shoud see an example that I put up

Si

[shall]

Here it is - in a stream called example large melee on the rules questions section ..hope it helps...

Si

What we do is break the line every time the BGs chnage on either side. So

1 1 - 1 1 - 2 - 2 2 2 - -3 - 3 3 3 ---- 1,2,3 = Heavy foot BGs facing down
E E - P P - P - K K K - K - P P P ---- E = Elephants, P & K = Pike ( all facing up )

Then every little block is a mini-fight. Roll hits and put them behind the mini-block.

Then remember that winning a combat doesn't matter - it has no effect. It whether you lose one that matters, and by how much. So add up for each BG the hits recevied and caused and see if you lost or not - i.e. looking at it from each BGs own perspective. If you lost take a CT and Death roll. If not then take a Death roll if you suffered 3 or more hits.

C'est voila. Very easy if you follow that approach once you have done 2 or 3. Note that given the above you can work the answer out for the El after the first mini-roll as it is thonly one it is engaged in. The 1s after the 2nd, the first Ps after the 3rd etc. But usually I prefer to get the whole set of hits done and on the table and then work along. I often use measuring sticks to show the breaks on the table if it gets very big.

Hope that helps. I might create an example of this and post it on the forum later in the week.

Si

[Luddite]

Aaagh!!

If only we'd had this clarification at that tabletop last night shall!!

We encountered precisely this problem, with 5 Roman Legions in contact with 4 Seleucid Pike blocks, all 2-wide frontage and offset by 1 base so that almost EVERY unit along the line on both sides was fighting two opponent BGs.

Our brains started to melt when trying to figure out what happened at the combat resolution.

We were trying to keep track of both what hits BGs inflicted and what hits they took...

EVENTUALLY, after much rule reading, head scratching, shouting and general mind bending...we figured out the key bit that you look at the losses from each BG's own perspective...so essentially after all the dice are rolled (and left behind the files as notes), EACH BG in a complex combat has to see whether it won or lost.

This took us a good hour of debate to sort out and i think we still need to run though a few more battles to get it clear that we're doing it right...



I think it's safe to say this is the first flaw we've found in the rules and its not really a flaw, just our inability to interpret what should've happened clearly and quickly...

[Keith]

Here it is - in a stream called example large melee on the rules questions section ..hope it helps...

Si

What we do is break the line every time the BGs chnage on either side. So

1 1 - 1 1 - 2 - 2 2 2 - -3 - 3 3 3 ---- 1,2,3 = Heavy foot BGs facing down
E E - P P - P - K K K - K - P P P ---- E = Elephants, P & K = Pike ( all facing up )

Then every little block is a mini-fight. Roll hits and put them behind the mini-block.

Then remember that winning a combat doesn't matter - it has no effect. It whether you lose one that matters, and by how much. So add up for each BG the hits recevied and caused and see if you lost or not - i.e. looking at it from each BGs own perspective. If you lost take a CT and Death roll. If not then take a Death roll if you suffered 3 or more hits.

C'est voila. Very easy if you follow that approach once you have done 2 or 3. Note that given the above you can work the answer out for the El after the first mini-roll as it is thonly one it is engaged in. The 1s after the 2nd, the first Ps after the 3rd etc. But usually I prefer to get the whole set of hits done and on the table and then work along. I often use measuring sticks to show the breaks on the table if it gets very big.

Hope that helps. I might create an example of this and post it on the forum later in the week.

Si

But isn't it one big combat and all hits contribute to the overall victory of the melee ?

[nikgaukroger]

Nope, it is important to find out who has lost a combat - defined as a BG taking more hits than it inflicts - as that is what causes CTs.

[rtaylor]

I found it helpful to banish the word "win" from my mind. A BG loses or it doesn't lose.

[nikgaukroger]

Indeed - sounds a bit odd to begin with but it is how it works. No need to thinik about drawn combat either as all that is is a not lost combat

[Scrumpy]

I found it helpful to banish the word "win" from my mind. A BG loses or it doesn't lose.

Hopefully yours will just lose next wednesday !

How did the undrilled Foderate IF sw do the other night ?

[Keith]

So it's not one big combat , even when you have 2 vs 1 .

e.g

WWWWMMMM
____LLLL


W=warriors
M=warriors
L=legion

W does 1 hit on L
M does 3 hits on L

L does 2 hits on W
L does 1 hit on M

Who takes a cohesion test ?

[Luddite]

I THINK , from how we interpreeted things, the (W)Warriors and the Legion.

W Warriors gave out 1 but took 2 so they lose and have to test

L Legion gave out 3 but took 4 so they lose and have to test

M Warriors gave out three but took 1 so didn't lose = no test...


I think...

[Keith]

Ok thanks
Is that how it supposed to play ?

We have been totaling hits so the Legion did 3 hits and recieved 4 so they test , but no test for either warrior unit = WRONG ?