Ottoman Turks vs Venetian

[mdoolitt]

Last night we played our 4th game of FOG. The two sides were Ottomans vs a Venetian expeditionary force. As best I can recall, the lists were as follows:
OTTOMAN
C-i-C
2x TC
1 Royal Sipahis CV Undrilled Armored Superior Bow* Swordsmen 1 x 6 bases
3 Fuedal Sipahis CV Undrilled Protected Average Bow* Swordsmen 3 x 6 bases
2 Akinjis LH Undrilled Unprotected Average Bow 2 x 4 bases
3 Azabs LF Undrilled Unprotected Average Bow 3 x 6 bases
2 Janissaries MF Drilled Superior Protected Bow Swordsmen 2 x 8
1 Serbs KN Undrilled HvyArmor Superior Lances Swordsmen 1 x 4 bases

VENETIANS
C-i-C
2x TC
2 Merc Knights KN Drilled Average HvyArmor Lances Swordsmen 2 x 6 bases
1 Mtd XBow Drilled Unprotected Average XBow 1 x 4
1 Stradiots LH Undrilled Unprotected Average Javelin Swordsmen 1 x 6
1 Pike HF Drilled Protected Avergae Pike 1 x 12
2 Sw&Buckler MF Drileld Protected Average Swordsmen 2 x 4
1 Billmen HF Drilled Protected Ave Heavy Weapon 1 x 6
1 Xbow MF Drilled Protected Ave Xbow 1 x 6
2 Handguns Drilled Unprotected Ave HGuns 2 x 6
1 Bombards Hvy Arty 1 x 2

The Ottomans won the initiative and chose Agricultural. Both sides chose the maximum number of terrain pieces, the Turks laying out open fields and gentle hills, the Venetians choosing steep hills, vineyards and enclosed fields. Most of the terrain ended up remaining on the board. On the Venetian right was a steep hill, two vinyards and a gully. O the Ottoman back edge were two gentle rises, and on the extreme left two fields which played no part in the battle..

The Venetians deployed as follows: From the right, Xbow, Billmen and Bombard. These were palced in the terrain on the right to block any attempted Ottoman flanking move. The center was occupied by the pike & two MF swordsmen, screened by the handgunners. On the left went the knights and light horse. Our camp went on the back edge behind our artillery.

The Ottomans left, facing our bad terrain, was a small force of 1 LF, one LH and one CAV. Their center went the two janissaries occupying a fortified camp on a gentle hill. The right had three lines -- LF & LH in front, two sipahis in the second line, and behind those the royal sipahi and Serbian knights.

The Venetians moved first. Aided by a general, the LH did a double move forward to cclamp down on the Ottoman manueverability. The knights and center foot also trundled forward, while the right awaited developments.

On the Ottoman turn both their wings advanced, the right one constrained somewhat by the presence of enemy. The janissaries in the center remained stationary, only sending forward a few skirmishers to harass the Venetians.

The next Venetian move saw the first action of the game. The Venetians declared charges with both LH against the LF & LH in front of them. The Ottomans chose to evade, their LH bursting through the two cavalry units behind them and disordering them. The Venetian light horse stopped one inch away from the enemy cavalry units. (Did we do that right?), the peppered them with ineffective shooting. Elsewhere the center continued to advance, and the right, seeing only weak Ottoman in front of it, also decided to move ahead.

The Sultan had now realized just how much the Venetian light cavalry was stuffing up his deployment. On the Ottoman turn a charge was ordered by both fuedal sipahis, desperate to clear the annoying stradiots out of the way and free up space for manuever. The Venetians evaded away, though they did briefly consider fighting the disrupted sipahis. The Sultan now devoted himself to reorganizing his right wing into a looser line. Elsewhere the left and center advanced to bowshot and began harassing the Venetian foot.

The Ottoman respite on their right was to prove only temporary. The charge by the sipahis had brought them close enough to the advancing Venetian knights, who charged in their turn. The Ottoman sipahis evaded easily, but the fuedal siphais were now once again constraining the manuvers of the troops in the second line. The Sultan did manage to shake out the Serbian knights to face off against their opposite numbers.

On the Ottoman left, an enterprising unit of horse archers had managed to get stuck between two Venetian foot BG and its own sipahis bg. A charge was declared by the Venetian billmen on the horse archers. After several readings of the evade rules and lengthy debate, it was decided that the horse archers would burst through their own unit, disruoting them.

In the center an Ottoman LF BG charged some Venetian handgunners, who chose to stand their ground. After an incredible struggle at dagger point, the Venetian handgunners completely wiped out the Ottoman archers in a single turn!! (auto-break).

With the clock running out, the Sultan decided to stake all on a single thunderous charge, with two units of sipahis and the Serbian knights against the Venetian mercenary knights.. But luck was not to be with the Turks, neither the POAs. After two rounds of melee, the Serbians had been auto-broken and one unit of sipahis routed, at the cost of one bases of knights.

At this point, time was called as everyone had to go home.

Questions
1) What is the definition of a commander being "with" a unit for double move purposes? Physically touching? Or just in command range?
2) The Ottoman side felt that the evade rules were too complicated, and could be replaced by a single paragraph saying, basically, "evade directly away".
3) Are foot allowed to charge mounted? There was some disagreement over the historical accuracy of this.

Overall, thanks for a great game! I haven't had this much fun with ancients in years.

[nikgaukroger]

1. Touching

2. They need to be more complicated than just "evade directly away" - how does that cover a BG being charged from 2 directions for example? In my experience if you use armies with evading troops fairly often you pick up the rules fairly quickly, you're only on your 4th so there are bound to be areas you are still exploring.

3. Yes, however, note some foot PoAs do not count if they do. Historically it did happen, Romans charging Sasanid cavalry springs to mind for example.

[rbodleyscott]

2) The Ottoman side felt that the evade rules were too complicated, and could be replaced by a single paragraph saying, basically, "evade directly away".

One problem with such a rule is that it would allow the chargers to choose their direction of charge in such a way as to force the skimishers to burst through their own men. This would lead to a lot of geometrical cheese.

So we give the evaders the option to evade to their own rear, where they (should) have a prepared line of retreat. The downside being that this may make it easier for them to be caught by the chargers.

[miffedofreading]

The next Venetian move saw the first action of the game. The Venetians declared charges with both LH against the LF & LH in front of them. The Ottomans chose to evade, their LH bursting through the two cavalry units behind them and disordering them. The Venetian light horse stopped one inch away from the enemy cavalry units. (Did we do that right?), the peppered them with ineffective shooting. Elsewhere the center continued to advance, and the right, seeing only weak Ottoman in front of it, also decided to move ahead.

I don't think that is correct. Light foot can interpenetrate any units. Evading units only "Burst" through units they can not interpenetrate, as such the LF could go straight through the cav without disordering them at all.

I THINK you are right about the light horse stopping an inch away, they have the option to charge the new enemy, but I believe certain light troops do not have to do so.... (can't remember)

Andy

[miffedofreading]

The next Venetian move saw the first action of the game. The Venetians declared charges with both LH against the LF & LH in front of them. The Ottomans chose to evade, their LH bursting through the two cavalry units behind them and disordering them. The Venetian light horse stopped one inch away from the enemy cavalry units. (Did we do that right?), the peppered them with ineffective shooting. Elsewhere the center continued to advance, and the right, seeing only weak Ottoman in front of it, also decided to move ahead.

I don't think that is correct. Light foot can interpenetrate any units. Evading units only "Burst" through units they can not interpenetrate, as such the LF could go straight through the cav without disordering them at all.

I THINK you are right about the light horse stopping an inch away, they have the option to charge the new enemy, but I believe certain light troops do not have to do so.... (can't remember)

Andy

[miffedofreading]

The next Venetian move saw the first action of the game. The Venetians declared charges with both LH against the LF & LH in front of them. The Ottomans chose to evade, their LH bursting through the two cavalry units behind them and disordering them. The Venetian light horse stopped one inch away from the enemy cavalry units. (Did we do that right?), the peppered them with ineffective shooting. Elsewhere the center continued to advance, and the right, seeing only weak Ottoman in front of it, also decided to move ahead.

I don't think that is correct. Light foot can interpenetrate any units. Evading units only "Burst" through units they can not interpenetrate, as such the LF could go straight through the cav without disordering them at all.

I THINK you are right about the light horse stopping an inch away, they have the option to charge the new enemy, but I believe certain light troops do not have to do so.... (can't remember)

Andy

[mdoolitt]

My writing was a bit unclear. The Ottoman LH caused a "burst through", the light foot interpenetrated without causing any disruption. Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for the answer.