Fourth rank of pike

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:40 am

If the front rank of a pike block is not in open terrain, does the 4th rank still give the POA if that rank is in open terrain?

The only section in the rules I can find is about multiple ranks all having the capability for a POA to count. However, stating 'fourth rank' rather than 'four ranks' carries an implication that it is only the fourth rank that needs to be in the open.

It could be argued that the front rank is doing the fighting, so it is the situation of that rank which counts. However, if the front rank is in open terrain, but the fourth rank not, there is a similar problem.

The disorder rules are that only those bases in the problem terrain are affected. This suggests that a fourth ran of pike in good terrain will contribute even if the leading ranks are not. Intuitively one feels that if the leading ranks are disordered rear ranks would not help. Seems a bit like being in a crowd. When the front gets on to rough ground, having the guys at the back pushing is a hinderance not a help.

I want to read the rules as "four ranks of pike if all are in open terrain" but is that the intention?

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:43 am

My understanding is, as you suggest, that terrain effects are applied per base and so the 4th rank in open terrain would give the PoA.

shall · Post by **shall** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:50 am

Technically it actually says "extra for 4th rank of pike".

So you are not adding the POA + for the fourth rank, but rather you are working out the POA for the front rank and giving them and extra + for having a 4th rank behind them. So the POAs are calculated for the front base here with a bonus for having a 4th rank.

Therefore if the front rank is in open terrain it can claim a 4th if there is one.

Played this way of course you can get the odd quirk where the front rank is in open and the rear not and the extra + would still count - but by then they are losing dice, and conceding Sw poas against them, and maybe losing their own POAs, and suffering CT -s if they get beaten ..... so doesn't seem a significant problem.

Si

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:57 am

The key point is the definition of open terrain in the glossary (p135) which say the POA doen't apply if the front base is even partly in terrain.

If it is extra for a 4th rank does this mean you can't get it if you aren't getting the + for 3 ranks - e.g. charging shock mounted?

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:20 am

Thanks for the quick reply Simon. The statement 'extra for the fourth ran if in open ground' means that if the front rank is in not in open ground then it cannot get the extra POA irrespective of where the fourth rank is. I.e. POA's are determined by the location of the front rank.

The only follow up on this then is if one rank of spear (or two of pike) are in open ground but the rank behind is severely disordered by terrain. If the POA is determined by the front rank then the two ranks of spear (three of pike) POA still applies.

I do not have a problem with this ruling. It may look a bit odd sometimes though. Pikes emerging from a forest for instance are fully effective once the front rank clears. Not as unlikely an occurence as it may appear if difficult terrain crowds the base line. We will also have to beware of Macedonian ambushes in woods.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:25 am

rogerg wrote:I do not have a problem with this ruling. It may look a bit odd sometimes though. Pikes emerging from a forest for instance are fully effective once the front rank clears. Not as unlikely an occurence as it may appear if difficult terrain crowds the base line.

Base depths are vastly over scale to allow figures to be placed on them. A 16 rank deep Macedonian phalanx would in reality all fit in the depth of the front base.

We will also have to beware of Macedonian ambushes in woods.

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:50 am

The base depth scale is sound reasoning. Maybe in version two in a few years it might be worth applying this principle generally to disorder and rear rank shooting. The front base of every file would then determine everything about the file's state.

shall · Post by **shall** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:01 pm

All in the land of minor swings and roundabouts here so not worth us straining our brains too much. It works fine either way frankly.

I always looked at them in the following way:

1. You are always looking at the position the front rank is in
2. Where it says extra for pikes it means exactly that - if the pikes have a 4th rank they get the extra if they are in open terrain - and that extra could be on a 0 POA or an existing + to answer the other question.
3. When it says Spearman "unless FRG or SEV DIS or < 2 ranks deep" again you look at it from the front ranks perspective and say are they DISR or better and are the part of file 2 base deep. If so then fine they get the plus.

So I too am happy with that and I rationalise it 2 ways

a) Richards very valid point about how thin our bases really should be - anyone for going back to flats!!
b) if the front ranks are in good shape I believe the back ones can give the extra muscle and support even if not in perfect order - by contrast if the front rank is not in good order then extra psh from the back is lijely to result in a "collapsed scrum"

Si

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:38 pm

I have to say that where the front rank is being the determinator for the 4th rank PoA is, IMO, counter intuative bearing in mind the words used in the rules - although I can see where the argument is coming from. I must confess it hadn't crossed my mind that it would be the front rank despite some careful reading of the rules.

Players will concentrate on the "4th rank" and "open ground" parts rather than the "extra" IMO.

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:45 pm

shall wrote: 2. Where it says extra for pikes it means exactly that - if the pikes have a 4th rank they get the extra if they are in open terrain - and that extra could be on a 0 POA or an existing + to answer the other question.

Si

The first part of this is incompatabile with the last part. Either you mean it is extra + - i.e. one that is additional to a previous one - or you don't mean extra - i.e. it is a + regardless of getting the previous. If you don't mean it in the "strong" form then the word "extra" is superfluous.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:49 pm

sagji wrote:
shall wrote: 2. Where it says extra for pikes it means exactly that - if the pikes have a 4th rank they get the extra if they are in open terrain - and that extra could be on a 0 POA or an existing + to answer the other question.

Si
The first part of this is incompatabile with the last part. Either you mean it is extra + - i.e. one that is additional to a previous one - or you don't mean extra - i.e. it is a + regardless of getting the previous. If you don't mean it in the "strong" form then the word "extra" is superfluous.

Not so. It is "extra" to indicate that it is additional to the + for 3 ranks. However, this does not automatically imply that if the 3rd rank + does not apply, the 4th rank one doesn't either. (I can see how you can read it that way, but you put your case too strongly, it is not the only interpretation).

Anyway, the intention is that the 4th rank one applies even if the 3-rank one doesn't.

The fact that the Impact Phase 4th rank POA is phrased "extra for 4th rank of pikemen whether charging or not" should make this clear.

The "whether charging or not" is meaningless other than to indicate that the POA counts even if the 3-rank one is cancelled for charging enemy shock
mounted.

Thus, clearly, the "extra" cannot mean that the 4th rank + does not apply if the 3-rank one doesn't in this case. And if it doesn't mean that in this case, it isn't logical to assume it does in other cases.