Wheeling to Charge Skirmishers in Terrain

[bbotus]

LLL
LLL

____CC
____CC

L=LF
C=Cav
____ Ignore,just for spacing.

The LF are in terrain and may stand to receive the charge of the Cav. Since the LF are still capable of evading, are the Cav only allowed to wheel to the point where they would contact the LF by a gnat's todger? I read that the answer is still yes. But that doesn't allow the Cav to maximize impact contact should the LF decide to stand. Comments, please.

[ravenflight]

LLL
LLL

____CC
____CC

L=LF
C=Cav
____ Ignore,just for spacing.

The LF are in terrain and may stand to receive the charge of the Cav. Since the LF are still capable of evading, are the Cav only allowed to wheel to the point where they would contact the LF by a gnat's todger? I read that the answer is still yes. But that doesn't allow the Cav to maximize impact contact should the LF decide to stand. Comments, please.

They can wheel from where-ever they start to make contact -or- continue to wheel only if this would increase the number of bases fighting (up to 90 degrees I believe, but am not 100% sure on this last bit).

Hard to say in your diagram because distances aren't listed, but you'd be limited by your distance from the left hand cav base to a point where the right hand base contacts the middle LF base. If this is less than their move distance then you would step forward with the left hand base and thus increase your number of bases contacted. Very convoluted (easier to explain face-to-face, but that's my reading of it.

[ravenflight]

Ahh, hang on a second, for some reason I thought the cav were facing to the left of the page. Reverse the cav edges (left for right etc) if facing up the page.

[bbotus]

Sorry, should have specified. The LF are facing down the page and the Cav are facing up the page. And just assume the Cav could wheel 45 or so and step forward to get 2 bases into contact.

I'm referring the to the sentence on page 58, V2, that says, "If charging enemy who could evade, the charging BG cannot wheel beyond the position at which the enemy would be contacted if they did not evade."

The way I interpret that sentence seems to negate your comment:

They can wheel from where-ever they start to make contact -or- continue to wheel only if this would increase the number of bases fighting (up to 90 degrees I believe, but am not 100% sure on this last bit).

and I was wondering if I'm missing something?

[ravenflight]

Sorry, should have specified. The LF are facing down the page and the Cav are facing up the page. And just assume the Cav could wheel 45 or so and step forward to get 2 bases into contact.

I'm referring the to the sentence on page 58, V2, that says, "If charging enemy who could evade, the charging BG cannot wheel beyond the position at which the enemy would be contacted if they did not evade."

The way I interpret that sentence seems to negate your comment:

They can wheel from where-ever they start to make contact -or- continue to wheel only if this would increase the number of bases fighting (up to 90 degrees I believe, but am not 100% sure on this last bit).

and I was wondering if I'm missing something?

No, I think I'm wrong. That is possibly a change to V2 which I am not as familiar with.

[grahambriggs]

I'm referring the to the sentence on page 58, V2, that says, "If charging enemy who could evade, the charging BG cannot wheel beyond the position at which the enemy would be contacted if they did not evade."

I read this literally. The charge starts wheeling. It could continue it's wheel up until the point where it touches the LF pre-evade position (which looks like it'll be the front left corner of the LF). But at that point it cannot continue to wheel. So, for example, you could keep the front left corner ofthe cavalry stationary and wheel into the LF (if the geometry, etc, permits). If that were a wheel of 75 degrees, what you are not allowed to do is a wheel of more that 75 degrees.

I think you may be reading it as "wheel beyond the position at which a move straight forward will contact the enemy"?

[bbotus]

I'm referring the to the sentence on page 58, V2, that says, "If charging enemy who could evade, the charging BG cannot wheel beyond the position at which the enemy would be contacted if they did not evade."

I read this literally. The charge starts wheeling. It could continue it's wheel up until the point where it touches the LF pre-evade position (which looks like it'll be the front left corner of the LF). But at that point it cannot continue to wheel. So, for example, you could keep the front left corner ofthe cavalry stationary and wheel into the LF (if the geometry, etc, permits). If that were a wheel of 75 degrees, what you are not allowed to do is a wheel of more that 75 degrees.

I think you may be reading it as "wheel beyond the position at which a move straight forward will contact the enemy"?

Oh, really, and , yes, you are right. That is how I'm reading it. I think I see what you are saying. To re-state in my words. The cav starts a left wheel and continues until it physically contacts the LF. That would be the limit of the allowed wheel. Correct?

If that is right, then why did they bother to put in the exception about being allowed to wheel 1 MU?

[grahambriggs]

I'm referring the to the sentence on page 58, V2, that says, "If charging enemy who could evade, the charging BG cannot wheel beyond the position at which the enemy would be contacted if they did not evade."

I read this literally. The charge starts wheeling. It could continue it's wheel up until the point where it touches the LF pre-evade position (which looks like it'll be the front left corner of the LF). But at that point it cannot continue to wheel. So, for example, you could keep the front left corner ofthe cavalry stationary and wheel into the LF (if the geometry, etc, permits). If that were a wheel of 75 degrees, what you are not allowed to do is a wheel of more that 75 degrees.

I think you may be reading it as "wheel beyond the position at which a move straight forward will contact the enemy"?

Oh, really, and , yes, you are right. That is how I'm reading it. I think I see what you are saying. To re-state in my words. The cav starts a left wheel and continues until it physically contacts the LF. That would be the limit of the allowed wheel. Correct?

If that is right, then why did they bother to put in the exception about being allowed to wheel 1 MU?

Yes correct. However, in v1 there was a bit of cheesiness as a result. Say you have a group of hoplites who would like to fight something squishy in my army - say unprotected MF bow. I'm not quite in front of you and have wheeled so I can shoot you. If I also put some LF skirmishers right in your face, the proverbial gnat's todger, any charge you might make to get rid of them would have to be pretty much straight forwards. You'd miss the MF and perhaps expose your flank.

This seems unhistorical and cheesy. There is no record of the Persian light troops doing this against hoplites, for example. In reality, the hoplites would wheel to take on the MF, and the light foot would just fall back out of the way.

Hence in v2 this 1MU wheel thingy came in. It's a bit inelegant, being in essence a "you can't do this except you can do it a bit" sort of rule. But it does give a more sensible, less gamey, result I think.

[bbotus]

OK, I think it is starting to make sense now.

That 1 MU wheel thingy sure muddies the water. I can't think of any use for it now that you've explained the 'wheel to contact' phrase.

It's a bit inelegant,

Classic British understatement

And , there is still the requirement that you can't make a wheel that would result in less attacking dice being thrown (page 57), is there not?

[grahambriggs]

OK, I think it is starting to make sense now.

That 1 MU wheel thingy sure muddies the water. I can't think of any use for it now that you've explained the 'wheel to contact' phrase.

It's a bit inelegant,

Classic British understatement

And , there is still the requirement that you can't make a wheel that would result in less attacking dice being thrown (page 57), is there not?

Yes the less dice thing still applies. The use of the 1MU wheel is really so that you can change direction a bit despite the skirmishers. It can make all the difference to avoid a flank charge next bound.

[bbotus]

Well, it finally makes sense. Thanks for your help. That 1MU wheely thingy really confused the issue for me.

[bbotus]

One last question to make sure I understand it. Here is the position

AAAALLL
AAAALLL
HHHH----CC
HHHH----CC

A=HF in melee with H
H=HF in melee with A
L=LF in overlap against H
C=Cav facing up with no one in front of them (they are allied with H)

The cav declares a charge on L. Assume the position is such that the following would happen. A straight ahead charge results in no dice. As the cav wheel, they increase contact such that they would first have 2 dice then 4 dice at 45 degrees and they would be back to 2 dice at 90 degrees.

Is it correct they they are allowed to wheel up to 90 degrees since that results in more dice than if they charged straight ahead? So the 4 dice at a 45 wheel is irrelevant.

[grahambriggs]

One last question to make sure I understand it. Here is the position

AAAALLL
AAAALLL
HHHH----CC
HHHH----CC

A=HF in melee with H
H=HF in melee with A
L=LF in overlap against H
C=Cav facing up with no one in front of them (they are allied with H)

The cav declares a charge on L. Assume the position is such that the following would happen. A straight ahead charge results in no dice. As the cav wheel, they increase contact such that they would first have 2 dice then 4 dice at 45 degrees and they would be back to 2 dice at 90 degrees.

Is it correct they they are allowed to wheel up to 90 degrees since that results in more dice than if they charged straight ahead? So the 4 dice at a 45 wheel is irrelevant.

Yes, from the number of dice point of view. There is no rule that you must maximise the number of dice thrown, just that you cannot throw less than you would in a straight ahead charge. In this case the straight ahead charge throws no dice so that rule won't resrict you.

[bbotus]

OK, thanks for the help.