Commander and BG Destroyed?

[BrianC]

Can someone point me to a page reference of when a BG is removed from the table, what then happens to the Commander attached to it? This happened to me last night but I could not find it in the rules.

Thanks

Brian

[shall]

Assuming you mean as a result of an autobreak or being down to 1 base. Page 116.

Generals can move off whenever they normally could

Si

[BrianC]

Hey Si,

Yes, my Roman cavalry was down to 3 stands and broken and caught by both Carthaginian cavalry BG pursuing it and it was down to 1 stand. Very nasty. I just couldn't find a reference at the time. I'm desperately trying to find a way to counter the Carthaginian cavalry advantage but am coming up short other than use foot. LOL Same with elephants, the only thing that seems to be able to fight them is LF. I had 4 bases of triarii trampled by the elephants and it only took 2 turns. Still interesting tactical problems.

Thanks for the page, I'll have a look when I get home from work today.

Thanks

Brian

[shall]

Sounds like you have exactly the problems that the real Roman generals had in real life

Si

[BrianC]

Hi Si,

My reading suggests the Romans liked to just barrel forward and get the infantry in to do their work as soon as possible while the cavalry would more than likely try to delay or distract the enemy cavalry. I just need to find some flaming pigs now as the next logical step : ).

Thanks

Brian

[shall]

Oh no that brings back memories .... maybe a SHC Cataphract chariots to go with them!

Indeed the Romans in FOG play the way you desribe history. Best solution to losing the cav wings I have found is to kill the enemy infantry before it happens!! Ellies can cause trouble and did - but a few jav armed cv work wonders - +s at shooting with jv.

Si

[Seldon]

This is an interesting post, I am always curious on the tactics people are developing

I've mentioned in another post that I particularly like the way FOG handles Elephants because they are neither usless nor the super killers ( like other rules).
Since you mentioned the problems you ar having to counter elephants I was curious about your statement about the Triarii having problems with them.

Wouldn't the Triarii be reasonably matched against them, they have a + for spears to offset the + from the elephants, yes the elephants will give you a -1 to cohesion but elephants are average and your triarii would be at least superior if not elite...

am I missing something or just the match between them is too even so it means you are not confident to hold the line against them.

I do realiza that elephants would appear have more staying power in the long run cause each base counts as 2 for HPB and they have a +1 for death rolls but on the other hand kill one base and they are gone so this would wash out since triarii would need to loose more than 50% or be down to one base ( not sure if you run them in 2s or 4s)

finally, I find the battles between republican romans and carthaginians more fun than in most systems, and very reasonable based on what I've read from all those histroy books regarding how this battles would happen

cheers

seldon

[BrianC]

Hey Seldon,

I am using the basic army list as shown in the rule book and had 2 BG's of Triarii, one behind each legion and they were elite. The elephants were in a 2 base BG and busted through the main line so I had to charge it with both BGs of Triarii to try to check its freedom of movement. The POA was a NET 0 from what I could see. So it was up to the dice, 4 vs 4. The elephants just rolled better. The impact saw 2 hits on the elephants but 3 on the Triarii with one losing a cohesion check. The melee was worse as the elephants rolled 4 hits vs the Triarii 2 hits. A bad roll on the cohesion check and now one fragmented Triarii and another close. The Triarii both failed their death rolls and were removed from the table.

I tried fighting them with skirmishers, and now triariis and don't know how to stop them. I just find them way too tough when figting in between 2 other BGs, they are line breakers. The only tactic left is to simply run and lose the game : ). This has happened to me 4 times now and I am losing hope as the Carthaginian cavalry consistently defeat my Roman cavalry and the elephants tear open my line. I pair up a commander with each Carthaginian cavalry BG and it makes it elite when the commanders fight in the front. Average vs elite makes for dead Romans : ). Similar to superior Roman HF vs average Carthaginian foot.

LOL the answer has to be out there other than lucky dice. Personally I think lucky dice is the only defence against elephants in the above situation.

Brian

[batesmotel]

Oh no that brings back memories .... maybe a SHC Cataphract chariots to go with them!

Indeed the Romans in FOG play the way you desribe history. Best solution to losing the cav wings I have found is to kill the enemy infantry before it happens!! Ellies can cause trouble and did - but a few jav armed cv work wonders - +s at shooting with jv.

Si

I thought we were talking historical lists here! After all, the flaming pigs are the fantasy option for the Camillan Romans while cataphract scythe chariots are the fantasy option for Late Romans. Perish the thought that serious historical gamers would even consider such an anachronism in the same army .

[babyshark]

I tried fighting them with skirmishers, and now triariis and don't know how to stop them. I just find them way too tough when figting in between 2 other BGs, they are line breakers. The only tactic left is to simply run and lose the game : ). This has happened to me 4 times now and I am losing hope

Boy, I want to play against you. My Late Seleucid elephants have failed their death rolls (even at +1) in the first bound of combat in two out of the four games that I have used them. Argle! They did do good work in one game, and I was too afraid to commit with them in the fourth after they failed me so miserably.

Marc

[Seldon]

Wow, I would say your luck is really bad, you are at the same POA but your Triarii are Elite while the elephants are just average and you still loose 4 to 2 !?!? Rolling like that I don't think you can stop anyone not just elephants

Also I am surprised the elephants break through the first line with such ease, again these been superior troops, even with -1 POA the re-rolls should help. And even then, the support from the triarii would cancel the elephants advantage on cohesion tests. All you need to do is kill one elephant and the otherone will run home !

Also are you remembering that re-rolls also apply for cohesion tests ? How can you be so unluky of failing cohesion so quickly... boy and I thought my luck was bad

ok, better luck on your next game, at some point your luck will turn average and those elephants will find a nasty surprise..

cheers, and thanks for the details on the situation

seldon

[BrianC]

LOL I think its just lucky dice. I was floored when I rolled all 5s and 6s. I was going to re-roll then I thought "i'm playtesting so leave the dice as they are" Heres a question. When playtesting do you think it would be better to re-roll such rolls to get more of an average or is it better to play as they fall so to speak?

I am planning on another playtest tomorrow night and hopefully luck will turn around. Just to keep things in perspective, my Roman HF have yet to lose against other foot or horse.

Still its interesting trying to recreate historic results. But it appears that I can at least play my Romans they way they were used, the only problem with that is that they fought with little ingenuity. They were a move forward and grind army.

Brian

[MarkSieber]

I had elephants join an African spear unit in attacking a principes/hastati unit (4 stands), and the Romans threw in an 8-stand Italian unit to hit back at the elephants. (A unit of Triarii also went in against the Africans.) In a couple of turns the elephants and the principes both evaporated, failing their respective death rolls at the same time. The Italians did well, first disrupting the elephants with the light spear on impact, balancing the plusses. Despite being down with swords in melee, and splitting the dice from the principes, it was the combination of two Roman units and the large size of the Italians that made the difference. The luck was fairly evenly distributed, but in the last round the elephants took 2 hits from each opponent.

I think that ganging up on small units (rather than simply going one-on-one) is a key to beating them--while trying to keep your own small units from being hit by more than one opponent on the other hand.

Mark S.

[BrianC]

Hey Si,

I just had a look at Page 116 but could not find anything on Generals/Commanders it only talks about BGs. Can you point me to a direct rule reference that explicitly says that generals may leave on their own? Just asking for completeness. And when a new players asks how you can do that I can show them in the rules.

Thanks

Brian

[rbodleyscott]

I just had a look at Page 116 but could not find anything on Generals/Commanders it only talks about BGs. Can you point me to a direct rule reference that explicitly says that generals may leave on their own? Just asking for completeness. And when a new players asks how you can do that I can show them in the rules.

There is no specific reference re what happens, because nothing happens.

The general is free to move in the JAP as normal.

[BrianC]

Thanks Richard.

Honestly it was not in the rules so I assumed that the BG was destroyed and therefore so was the commander because it was attached to it at the time of its demise.

I must admit this is one aspect of FOG that I am finding so frustrating and difficult because I am looking for rules to cover these events but am not always finding them. Its great to come here to get answers but I don't want to have to have a binder full of printouts of forum questions and answers : ).

I think some level of experience with DBx or other ancients rules systems must be assumed. This is the first rules system to make me question my intelligence LOL. When I first read the rules I would often times read a sentence and ask myself, what the hell are they saying LOL, I felt like I was reading a DBx sentence. And I have played some complex games in my past, Fire in the East one and Squad Leader another and have not experienced the level of frustration I find with FOG. And I even have a degree so my bulb is partially lit at least : ).

Is anyone else experiencing the same sort of thing or is it just me? Maybe I should just give up : (

Thanks

Brian

[shall]

In essence we don't repeat things - so if you are allowed to move at some point (movement and JAP) then unless we say you can't for some reason, then you can. If you see what I mean.

On the El/Triari, one of the reasons they are volatile is that they are 2 base BGs, so both will explode at losing a base. Whoever loses a combat is likely to lose a base. So this is one of the most volatile of fights in the FOG world. If the Triari were in 4s they would generally win fairly easily as they won't fail CTs but might lose a base.

It is exactly that brittleness we wanted in those BG designs as it encorages you to use the Triari as rear support. Elephnats are powerful but brittle. So its volatile by design that one.

Si

[MarkSieber]

Thanks Richard.

Honestly it was not in the rules so I assumed that the BG was destroyed and therefore so was the commander because it was attached to it at the time of its demise.

I must admit this is one aspect of FOG that I am finding so frustrating and difficult because I am looking for rules to cover these events but am not always finding them. Its great to come here to get answers but I don't want to have to have a binder full of printouts of forum questions and answers : ).

I think some level of experience with DBx or other ancients rules systems must be assumed. This is the first rules system to make me question my intelligence LOL. When I first read the rules I would often times read a sentence and ask myself, what the hell are they saying LOL, I felt like I was reading a DBx sentence. And I have played some complex games in my past, Fire in the East one and Squad Leader another and have not experienced the level of frustration I find with FOG. And I even have a degree so my bulb is partially lit at least : ).

Is anyone else experiencing the same sort of thing or is it just me? Maybe I should just give up : (

Thanks

Brian

I had the same experience with a general and a destroyed unit (the principes in my example above) Not finding anything explicit about him being killed, surmised that he could move away--since he survived the die roll from being in combat, but I wasn't certain. I was happy to find that affirmed here.

I was having trouble at first getting my mind around some of the concepts, and struggled a fair amount in learning how they work, and how they work together. Once I thought I understood them, these discussions have helped me to verify or adjust my conclusions. I recall when DBM was released I had an even more difficult time moving from unit-based rules to stand-based rules. Indeed, our play group had many discussions and arguments over each new set of rules--from WRG 6th on, and several other publishers as well. I find FoG more precisely written than any previous set, and the inevitable questions that come up when working with a complex system benefit greatly from the forum--these arguments used to happen in the midst of tournaments, which was no fun at all.

I believe there's an expectation (I tend towards it myself) that written rules should address every case while remaining brief, and should be works of intellectual clarity that stand on their own. I've come to see that they are like any regulation: open to interpretation and adjusted by negotiation (but fortunately without paid attorneys!) What I really like about the evolution of this set of rules is that the development team is incredibly accessible (do you guys ever sleep!?), consistent in their design philosophy, and firm yet open about their design choices. This seems to have reduced the amount of negotiation that would usually occur in the public realm over a longer period of time. This attests to the amount of thought and work put into the project before it's release. I hope no designers were injured during development

Even with reduced negotiation, wargaming is as much about mutual support among gamers as it is about competition. I see no reason to give up--I'm very impressed with the camaraderie of the online participants and the quality of the discussions and answers.

Mark S

[rbodleyscott]

I hope no designers were injured during development

Well not fatally, but I did suffer a broken wrist, and some of the play-testers suffered nose-bleeds from too much excitement.

[shall]

the development team is incredibly accessible (do you guys ever sleep!?),

Only in shifts

Now keep the noise down or you'll wake Richard!

Si