Defensive fire when in contact

[richafricanus]

A unit that is in contact as a result of a pursuit move last turn, is charged. Does it get to fire defensively at the new chargers if it has over half it's bases exposed and in arc?

[BrettPT]

You cannot shoot if in contact with enemy, so no defensive fire.

The large unit with only one base in contact rule means such a unit can be shot at. It cannot shoot itself.

[richafricanus]

I looked for that in the rules but couldn't find it. Where does it say that?

[deadtorius]

Page 48: "Units allowed to Fire second paragraph after bullets, A base of a unit can not fire or be fired upon if it is contact with an enemy unit, or if it is another base of the same unit adjacent to and touching such a base (even if only corner to corner). Note that bases of a small unit (in Tactical or Square) may never fire or be targeted if any part of the unit is in contact with the enemy. Dice allowance and range is calculated against the permitted target bases only."

Looks like a large unit that is 3 wide and being attacked on one end with only 1 base in contact could still shoot or be shot at from the base at the far end, as long as the middle base is not in contact with an enemy base.

As for your original question if the large unit was three wide and the pursuing unit only contacted one base at one end then yes you should be able to defensive fire as a small unit from the opposite end. if the pursuers ended in contact with one end and the middle base no shooting allowed. Large unit 2 wide and the pursuers ended in contact, it fires a small unit so no shooting allowed. Small unit pursuers ended in contact no shooting allowed.

[BrettPT]

You are completely correct Dead.
- thanks, I've previously assumed that this fire as a small unit rule only applied to targets, and that units in combat could not themselves shoot.

Cheers
Brett

[Blathergut]

How is this possible when bases in contact with enemy can't shoot or be shot at and bases in contact with bases in contact with enemy can't shoot or be shot at? The middle bases of a large unit 3 bases wide have 4 bases unable to shoot since the two middle bases are in contact with bases contacted by enemy. The middle bases do not have to be contacted by enemy themselves.

How can just two end bases shoot? This is not a small unit.

[Blathergut]

Those two extra bases can be shot at.

[deadtorius]

A base of a unit can not fire or be fired upon

.....

If the bases are not in contact directly or touching bases in contact then it says they can shoot. It does not specifically state that units in contact can't shoot, even for small units it implies that the unit could shoot if not for the fact that its neighboring base at least will always be in contact in combat.

[Blathergut]

But two bases cannot shoot. You need four (a small unit) to be able to shoot. How do two bases shoot?

[KeefM]

Bases don't shoot, but units do. So if a large unit in combat on just 1 base is allowed to shoot, then it simply shoots (presumably as a small unit cos it will likely have a screened front corner).

Like Brett I had always assumed units in combat couldn't shoot - only be shot at.

Terry might like to illuminate this one ...

[Blathergut]

I get that a unit shoots. But a small unit consists of 4 bases, a large 6. Even one base in contact with enemy prohibits 4 bases of a large unit from shooting or being shot at. You don't have another 4 bases to act as a small unit shooting.

[deadtorius]

Best guess on that one is that part of the middle bases are engaged in the combat on the one end and the other part is going to help shoot with the troops on the other end. That makes your 4 base small unit. You can only trace arc and range to and from the end base not in contact, not the middle base. That prevents the middle base from shooting or taking fire.
keep in mind that Combat in these rules is not always up close and personal stabbing with swords and bayonets, it could include standing back at short rang say 20 paces and blasting away at each other. Another thing to keep in mind is that at present no combat has occurred since in this case the pursuit hit in the second half of the move, so you could also consider the shooting from the far end to occur before the pursuing troops have even arrived yet.

[Blathergut]

So now we are dealing with half bases. This is silly. **Slaps you with a mackerel.**

What made you think originally that the exposed two bases could shoot?

[BrettPT]

I think it is worth reiterating Keith's point, shooting is done by units, not baes.
So the question is not whether a particular base can shoot, but rather can the unit shoot.

The answer seems to be yes, a unit can shoot as long as at least part (ie a base) of the shooting unit is not in touching enemy, or adjacent to a base touching enemy.

So only a large unit will ever qualify.
The unit will shoot at a cohesion level lower (a line cannot be drawn from both front corners) and will also shoot as a small unit if only one end base is opposite the target. Note that if the target is in front of two of the shooter's bases, they will shoot as a large unit (the last bullet point on page 51 would not apply).

I think the difficulties stem from thinking in terms of bases shooting, rather than units. Probably a FoGA hangover.

Cheers
Brett

[Blathergut]

So a large unit charges into contact with only one end base in contact with enemy. In the shooting phase, the other end gets to shoot with the full effect of a large unit if enemy is to the front of centre?

[BrettPT]

So a large unit charges into contact with only one end base in contact with enemy. In the shooting phase, the other end gets to shoot with the full effect of a large unit if enemy is to the front of centre?

I think that is what the rules say when you work through them, although at a cohesion level lower because both front corners of the large unit cannot see the target.

[Blathergut]

That so does not sound right.

[KendallB]

So a large unit charges into contact with only one end base in contact with enemy. In the shooting phase, the other end gets to shoot with the full effect of a large unit if enemy is to the front of centre?

Here's my take:

If this occurred then the large unit has to shoot as a small unit (4 dice). Additionally as one corner can't draw a line to the target the unit fires one cohesion level (i.e. 3 dice).

Bear in mind that the large unit can also be SHOT AT and could lose a cohesion level just before the combat phase.

[Blathergut]

Oiiii...still no author reply?

[terrys]

Here's my take:

If this occurred then the large unit has to shoot as a small unit (4 dice). Additionally as one corner can't draw a line to the target the unit fires one cohesion level (i.e. 3 dice).

This is the most reasonable translation of the rules as written.
We weren't going to allow units in combat to fire at all, unless it was a half-unit in extended line.
However, when we decided to allow enemy to fire at the end of a large unit, it seamed reasonable to allow it to fire back.

I have been looking at publishing an FAQ on firing (which is partially written) which would ad a simpler rule for this situation.
It would also affect medium and long range firing at units with the end base of a large unit, which is also firing at an enemy at closer range. (the rule also covers large artillery units of 4 bases (with attachment) that has 2 bases available to fire.
In general the rule would be that the unit can fire a number of dice equal to the difference between a large unit firing and a small unit firing, simplified as:
> A single base of infantry can fire at close range with 2 dice and at medium range with 1 dice.
> A single base of artillery can fire at close or medium range with 2 dice and at long range with 1 dice.
> A large artillery unit with an attachment firing with 2 bases would fire at close range with 4 dice, medium range with 3 dice and long range with 2 dice.
Obviously - the close range firing can only occur when the rest of the unit is in combat.